Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant  (Read 7554 times)

0 Members and 14 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Plenus Venter

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1410
  • Reputation: +1144/-90
  • Gender: Male
Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
« on: September 03, 2023, 08:04:06 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Attached is a booklet in PDF format with Pope St Pius X's Motu Proprio on sacred music Tra Le Sollecitudini (1903), including his accompanying letter to Pietro Cardinal Respighi, Vicar of Rome, followed by the text of perhaps a little-known instruction from Cardinal Respighi (1912) which indicates the will of the reigning Pontiff.

    Cardinal Respighi was Vicar of Rome from 1900 until his death in 1913:
    Pietro Respighi - Wikipedia

    His letter starts on page 20. On page 22 we read: "In order to facilitate so important a work, it has seemed good to us to give a few practical rules to which by order of the Holy Father, all persons whatsoever who have to do with the performance of music in the Churches and Chapels in Rome are required to give ear".

    Immediately follows: "The best ecclesiastical traditions demand that the whole assembly of the faithful should join in the singing at all liturgical functions, by executing the parts of the text which are assigned to the choir, and that a special Schola Cantorum should alternate with the people, undertaking the more richly melodious parts, which should be strictly reserved to them.

    Further on, under 'Rules for Superiors of Churches' on pp 26 and 27 we read: "...they should should explain to the people... inviting the faithful to cooperate in this matter especially by taking a more active part in the sacred functions, by singing the Kyrie Eleison, the Gloria, etc., ..."

    This is a good lesson on how careful we must be in judging on such matters. It would seem to vindicate Archbishop Lefebvre (and the sermon given by Bishop Tissier which I posted in another thread) as also the Popes following Pope Pius X up to Pius XII who have been harshly criticised in this and other matters by some contemporary scholars who too readily discard the liturgical directives of the Vicar of Christ as being the deviations of a hijacked Liturgical Movement.



    Offline Giovanni Berto

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1109
    • Reputation: +905/-53
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #1 on: September 03, 2023, 08:11:58 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • St. Pius V prohibited all the missals that were less than 200 years old when he promulgated Quo Primum. 

    Were all af them bad? Probably not. The Holy Father was just being careful to get rid of anything that could be infected with heresies.

    I believe that we can apply the same principles regarding the novelties in the liturgy in the 20th century. It is the safer path.

    St. Pius X was obviously not a Modernist. If I had to draw a line, I would probably prohibit any liturgical norms that came up after his reign, since he was the last really good Pope that we had.


    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #2 on: September 03, 2023, 09:10:24 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I guess my first thought was, “If congregational singing was so traditional, then why did the people need to be told they should be doing it?”

    It reminded me of St. Pius X’s exhortation to receive daily communion: It might be a good thing for some, but it definitely wasn’t traditional.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Miseremini

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4291
    • Reputation: +3385/-255
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #3 on: September 03, 2023, 10:08:46 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • According to Carol Byrne's book Born of Revolution, A Misconceived Liturgical Movement, the original Motu Proprio (in Latin) by Pius X NEVER indicated the people should sing.  The word "active" as in active participation never appears in the original Latin but does appear in the Italian translation dated the same day.
    To understand what His Holiness wrote we need someone familiar with Latin to read the original.  What we have access to in various languages was compromised on day one.
    I'm only on chapter three but carol obviously did extensive research.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline Plenus Venter

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1410
    • Reputation: +1144/-90
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #4 on: September 04, 2023, 07:00:58 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • According to Carol Byrne's book Born of Revolution, A Misconceived Liturgical Movement, the original Motu Proprio (in Latin) by Pius X NEVER indicated the people should sing.  The word "active" as in active participation never appears in the original Latin but does appear in the Italian translation dated the same day.
    To understand what His Holiness wrote we need someone familiar with Latin to read the original.  What we have access to in various languages was compromised on day one.
    I'm only on chapter three but carol obviously did extensive research.
    Yes. So says Dr Carol Byrne. That is my point. But let us forget about the word 'active' and just read what is said here by the Cardinal Vicar of Rome, the one entrusted by Pope St Pius X to put his Motu Proprio into effect. He is here laying down the rules to the clergy of Rome which "BY ORDER OF THE HOLY FATHER", "ALL PERSONS", "ARE REQUIRED TO GIVE EAR". Does it not mean something? I don't think we need to be Latinists to make sense of this. Sean says it is not traditional. But Cardinal Respighi, in the name of the Holy Father St Pius X, in the Pope's backyard says "THE VERY BEST ECCLESIASTICAL TRADITIONS DEMAND THAT THE WHOLE ASSEMBLY OF THE FAITHFUL SHOULD JOIN IN THE SINGING". It makes a mockery of the Church to refuse this. St Pius X, Pius XI, Pius XII, Archbishop Lefebvre, the great prelate raised up by God to preserve Tradition in this crisis. What is left of the Magisterium if we set ourselves up to judge these great men of God and the Church? "My research", that is what is left...


    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #5 on: September 04, 2023, 07:12:13 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes. So says Dr Carol Byrne. That is my point. But let us forget about the word 'active' and just read what is said here by the Cardinal Vicar of Rome, the one entrusted by Pope St Pius X to put his Motu Proprio into effect. He is here laying down the rules to the clergy of Rome which "BY ORDER OF THE HOLY FATHER", "ALL PERSONS", "ARE REQUIRED TO GIVE EAR". Does it not mean something? I don't think we need to be Latinists to make sense of this. Sean says it is not traditional. But Cardinal Respighi, in the name of the Holy Father St Pius X, in the Pope's backyard says "THE VERY BEST ECCLESIASTICAL TRADITIONS DEMAND THAT THE WHOLE ASSEMBLY OF THE FAITHFUL SHOULD JOIN IN THE SINGING". It makes a mockery of the Church to refuse this. St Pius X, Pius XI, Pius XII, Archbishop Lefebvre, the great prelate raised up by God to preserve Tradition in this crisis. What is left of the Magisterium if we set ourselves up to judge these great men of God and the Church? "My research", that is what is left...

    PV-

    What “tradition” does the Vicar general cite??

    Obviously, it wasn’t the custom at the time, or he wouldn’t have to convince the faithful how “traditional” it was.

    Is he going back to the era of the primitive Church to cite such a custom (archaeologism), as the Holy Week reformers did?

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Plenus Venter

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1410
    • Reputation: +1144/-90
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #6 on: September 04, 2023, 07:49:04 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • PV-

    What “tradition” does the Vicar general cite??

    Obviously, it wasn’t the custom at the time, or he wouldn’t have to convince the faithful how “traditional” it was.

    Is he going back to the era of the primitive Church to cite such a custom (archaeologism), as the Holy Week reformers did?
    Hey Sean. Yes, I'll grant you that - he doesn't cite any sources. But his letter is no historical study, but rather a practical laying down of rules "in the name of the Holy Father".
    Was Pius X guilty of archaeologism and subsequently condemned by Pius XII??? The plot thickens.... !!!
    What might have been more obvious in Rome 100 years ago, before the Vatican II revolution, may be more obscure and difficult for us to know now... we should never imagine we have all the sources and are competent to make a superior judgement.
    And here is the point with Dr Byrne. She is at pains to demonstrate that St Pius X was opposed to congregational singing. Yet surely she was unaware of this source - the Pope's Roman Vicar, Cardinal Respighi's letter.
    Would not these saintly men and Popes who have been given by God to guide us in this liturgical discipline over the course of the last 100 years know better whether this was to the edification of the Church and souls than some modern day liturgical scholar?

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #7 on: September 04, 2023, 08:17:33 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Hey Sean. Yes, I'll grant you that - he doesn't cite any sources. But his letter is no historical study, but rather a practical laying down of rules "in the name of the Holy Father".
    Was Pius X guilty of archaeologism and subsequently condemned by Pius XII??? The plot thickens.... !!!
    What might have been more obvious in Rome 100 years ago, before the Vatican II revolution, may be more obscure and difficult for us to know now... we should never imagine we have all the sources and are competent to make a superior judgement.
    And here is the point with Dr Byrne. She is at pains to demonstrate that St Pius X was opposed to congregational singing. Yet surely she was unaware of this source - the Pope's Roman Vicar, Cardinal Respighi's letter.
    Would not these saintly men and Popes who have been given by God to guide us in this liturgical discipline over the course of the last 100 years know better whether this was to the edification of the Church and souls than some modern day liturgical scholar?

    Of course, the dilemma raised here is to explain the arbitrarity implicit in judging that those you name were "given by God to guide us in this liturgical discipline over the last 100 years," but their successors (John XXIII, Paul VI, JPII, BXVI, Francis) were not.

    But here's where the inquiry should concentrate:

    1) Did Pope St. Pius X really include the word "attiva" in TLS, or was this slipped in later by someone else (and if so, why)?

    2) Was congregational singing an organic development of liturgical practice, consistent over the centuries until it was somehow eclipsed, only to be recovered by Pope St. Pius X?

    If both those questions could be affirmed, I would immediately abandon all my reservations on the subject (and posibly even if only the first could be affirmed).

    PS: I am aware that while still a Cardinal, St. Pius X endorsed the faithful singing the Kyrie, Gloria, and Credo, and this is evidence against Byrne's conclusion that he opposed congregational singing.  But Pius IX also had ideas as cardinal which he did not endorse as poep (i.e., referring to his liberalism, and the hopes the Masons had of his pontificate).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline magdalena

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2554
    • Reputation: +2037/-42
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #8 on: September 04, 2023, 08:21:17 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • According to Carol Byrne's book Born of Revolution, A Misconceived Liturgical Movement, the original Motu Proprio (in Latin) by Pius X NEVER indicated the people should sing.  The word "active" as in active participation never appears in the original Latin but does appear in the Italian translation dated the same day.
    To understand what His Holiness wrote we need someone familiar with Latin to read the original.  What we have access to in various languages was compromised on day one.
    I'm only on chapter three but carol obviously did extensive research.
    Here’s the reference:

    https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f074_Dialogue_2.htm
    But one thing is necessary. Mary hath chosen the best part, which shall not be taken away from her.
    Luke 10:42

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #9 on: September 04, 2023, 08:27:25 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Here’s the reference:

    https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f074_Dialogue_2.htm
    Pius X Did Not Call for
    ‘Active Participation’ in Liturgy
    Dr. Carol Byrne, Great Britain
    Discrepancies between the Latin and vernacular texts of TLS

    In the last article we pointed out discrepancies between the Italian and Latin versions of Pope Pius X’s motu proprio, Tra le Sollecitudini (TLS), mentioning that the word “active” had been added to the Italian text to describe the participation of the laity.



    greogian chant
    Monks singing chant illustrate a medieval manuscript
    Here we shall deal more closely with the Italian version of TLS published in the Acta Sanctae Sedis in relation to the authentic Latin text and show how, on the crucial issue of the participation of the faithful in the liturgy, they diverge in meaning. Clearly, they cannot both represent the mind of the Pope.

    Let us examine § 3 of the Latin version, which indicates Pope Pius X’s intentions. It says in a few succinct words that Gregorian Chant, transmitted by tradition, is to be fully restored to the sacred rites: Cantus gregorianus, quem transmisit traditio, in sacris solemnibus omnino est instaurandus.

    It then goes on to explain why Gregorian Chant should be given back to the people, so that in particular the Christian faithful may once again, in the custom of their forebears, participate more ardently in the liturgy: Praesertim apud populum cantus gregorianus est instaurandus, quo vehementius Christicolae, more maiorum, sacrae liturgiae sint rursus participes.

    Now, we shall examine the pitfalls of having a docuмent in the vernacular (both Italian and English) and the misconceptions that can arise because of faulty translations.

    “By the people”

    TLS says that Gregorian Chant should be restored nell'uso del popolo (for the use of the people) in the liturgy. It does not specify which people or for what purpose – singing or listening – they are to use the Chant. Even worse, the English version states that the use of Gregorian Chant by the people is what the Pope intended. The underlying suggestion made by these vague and generalized paraphrases is that “the people” means the whole congregation and that the Pope wanted them all to join in the Chant.

    But that is an assumption that is not supported by the Latin text, which states that Gregorian Chant is to be restored apud populum, i.e., among or in the presence of the faithful; in other words, in the churches. The Pope had already expressed this idea in his Introduction: ubi Christicolae congregantur (there where the Christian faithful gather).

    Apud is a preposition that indicates proximity or geographical location and cannot be translated by a phrase indicating instrumentality, as in something done “by the people.” In saying that Gregorian Chant should be restored to the people, the Pope gave no indication in this passage or elsewhere in the docuмent that he wanted it to be sung by all the faithful.

    “Active participation”

    The problem revolves around the interpretation of “participation” of the laity in the liturgy as understood by Pope Pius X. Whereas the noun participatio is used on its own in the Latin version, the Italian translation of TLS exceeds the bounds of equivalence by adding the word “active”: “partecipazione attiva” to it. This happens several times, even though there is no equivalent of “active” in the Latin text.



    active participation
    Active participation in singing has become the norm in Catholic churches
    As accuracy is of primary concern in order to ensure that translations convey the full meaning of the original, it cannot be assumed that the drafter of the Latin version felt no need to include the equivalent of “active” on the grounds that this was implied in “participation.”

    (Incidentally, the Italians were the first to translate pro multis in the Words of Consecration by “for all” on the assumption that “for many” implied “for all,” but this was an erroneous assumption that led to a misunderstanding of the nature of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.)

    No part of the Latin version of the motu proprio indicates that the Pope envisaged an “active” role for the congregation. Paragraphs 12-14 show that the only authorized lay performers are choir members, women excluded. As the raison d’être of Gregorian Chant was the text, not the people, the intention of the Pope was to clothe the text with beauty (verba liturgiae exornare - to embellish the words of the liturgy), not to make the people vociferate.

    Those who insist that TLS was a manifesto for congregational singing make the mistake of giving precedence to so-called “active” participation over the lex orandi (the way prayers and liturgical texts transmit the Faith in the immutable Latin language.)

    “A more active part”

    The Latin version uses the word vehementius to indicate the manner in which the faithful should participate in the liturgy. This is loosely and incorrectly translated in the Italian and English versions to say that all should play a “more active part” (parte più attiva) in the liturgy, and the impression is given that this is accomplished by everyone singing Gregorian Chant. But the Latin text does not support this conclusion.

    Vehementius is related to the Latin adverb vehementer, which has been used throughout classical antiquity, and also in ecclesiastical texts, to indicate intensity of emotions, strength of feelings and other interior dispositions of the human mind. It can be translated by “greatly” or “exceedingly.” (1)

    Pope Pius X used it thus: vehementer optemus (we ardently desire) in the Introduction to the motu proprio to show his fervent desire to restore Gregorian Chant. He also used it in his encyclical Vehementer Nos of 1906 to convey the depth of his grief over the injustices to the Church occasioned by the recent French law on State secularism.

    Vehementius, the comparative form of vehementer, can be translated by “more ardently / more fervently / to a greater degree.” There are no grounds for believing that the Pope was making a comparison between singers and non-singers or suggesting that the latter were somehow deficient in relation to the former. Rather, he was comparing the suitability of Gregorian Chant and profane styles of music (2) in their ability to enhance prayerful participation in the liturgy.



    choirboys
    The Pope called for trained choirs of male voices singing pure chant
    In § 2, the Pope referred to the special power of suitable sacred music on the minds of the faithful who listen to it (in animis audientium illam), moving them to devotion and making them better disposed for the reception of the fruits of grace coming from the celebration of the Mass. The key concept here is that an intellectual grasp of the nature of the Mass is greatly facilitated by listening to the sublime strains of Gregorian Chant sung by a well trained choir – not by the entire congregation.

    Listening is, therefore, approved by the Pope as a way of participating fruitfully in the liturgy. This is reinforced in § 9, which states that the Chant must be sung by the choir for the benefit of the faithful who listen, and in such a way that it must be intelligible to them, i.e., clearly enunciated so as not to obscure the text. (3)

    But, in order to produce the desired effect of appealing to the higher faculties of the soul, especially the intellect, the execution of the Chant must be undertaken by trained choirs: the voices must be pure, restrained, lacking any element of worldliness or self-expression. This was one of the reasons why the Pope did not include a role for the congregation in singing any part of the liturgy.

    Sacred music in the Mass has always been regarded as “participatory” for the faithful insofar as it functions to edify, educate and lift them to devotion. So, pursuing one’s private devotions to the background of liturgical chant performed by the choir cannot be interpreted as non-participation. Yet the liturgical reformers argued that a true understanding of the Mass by the faithful required the elimination of such silent prayers in favor of direct vocal participation. Pope Pius X had given no such directive.

    “In ancient times”

    Liturgists have hastily jumped to the conclusion that the Pope wanted the Church to return to the practice of the early Christians who had included some congregational singing in the liturgy. Where did they get that impression? Certainly not from the Latin version of the motu proprio, which mentions nothing about “ancient times.”



    monks manuscript
    The Pope called for a return to Gregorian chant following Catholic tradition
    The impression arose from the vernacular texts regarding the meaning of the Latin phrase more maiorum (according to the customs of the ancestors) as used by Pope Pius X in § 3 with reference to Gregorian Chant. The Italian version uses the ambiguous expression “anticamente,” which could mean either in antiquity (4) or simply formerly. The English version, ignoring the second meaning, states that Gregorian Chant used to be the custom in some unspecified “ancient times.” But neither comes near to an accurate translation of more maiorum.

    We need to know the relevance of this particular phrase and why it was chosen as being most appropriate. The mos maiorum (custom of the ancestors) was the unwritten code of traditional values observed by the ancient Romans and incorporated into their laws. It represented their time-honored cultural and social practices and provided guidelines for private, political and military life in Roman times. (5)

    Just as adherence to tradition gave the Romans a sense of what was fitting and proper, the same could be said for the suitability of Gregorian Chant, which had a long and venerable tradition in the Church. The mos maiorum was the medium of transmission of Gregorian Chant, as the Pope explained: it had been handed down by tradition (quem transmisit traditio).

    Now, we can see clearly why Gregorian Chant should be restored to the people: so that, through its special power to move the soul, they can once again participate in the liturgy more maiorum – according to the custom of previous generations of Catholics, before the fashion for theatrical and profane music had invaded the churches.

    There is, thus, no reference to or recommendation of congregational singing, which, if it took place at some times and in some places, was never an established and universal custom of the Roman rite. So, it could not have been designated as part of the mos maiorum.

    We can be sure that the translation “in ancient times” is false for two reasons. First, because more maiorum refers to an ongoing, unbroken tradition, and, second, because customs that have been discarded for centuries cannot be reincorporated into the liturgy without destroying its intrinsically traditional nature. Indeed, any attempt to do so was later condemned as “antiquarianism” by Pope Pius XII in Mediator Dei.

    Continued



    • Thus we read, for instance, in De Bello Africo Commentarius that “Quibus ex rebus Caesar vehementer commotus” (Caesar was greatly alarmed by these things), and in De Bello Civili that his famous Ninth Legion was “vehementer attenuata” (greatly diminished).
    • In § 6, the Pope particularly deplored the style of music that had recently been used in the liturgy: “Among the different kinds of modern music, that which appears less suitable for accompanying the functions of public worship is the theatrical style, which was in the greatest vogue, especially in Italy, during the last century. This of its very nature is diametrically opposed to Gregorian Chant and classic polyphony, and therefore to the most important law of all good sacred music. Besides the intrinsic structure, the rhythm and what is known as the conventionalism of this style adapt themselves but badly to the requirements of true liturgical music.”
    • Clarity of enunciation was also emphasized by Canon 8 of the Council of Trent.
    • This is obviously not the intended meaning here for two reasons. First, Gregorian Chant as a distinctive corpus of music did not exist in the early Christian era. Secondly, the use of the Imperfect Tense “solevasì” in Italian indicates an action that had been going on for an extended period of time (such as the Gregorian Chant tradition), not something that had disappeared a long time ago (such as congregational singing), for which a different Past Tense would have had to be used.
    • Virgil’s Aeneid celebrates the mos maiorum of the Roman people, as depicted in the character of Aeneas. He epitomized the Roman ideal of pietas, the core concept of ancient Roman morality which included duties to religion, the family, the wider community and the patria.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline hansel

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 129
    • Reputation: +182/-5
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #10 on: September 04, 2023, 08:54:43 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • 2) Was congregational singing an organic development of liturgical practice, consistent over the centuries until it was somehow eclipsed, only to be recovered by Pope St. Pius X?

    A comprehensive historical/musicological assessment of the possibility (or lack) of congregational singing in Catholic churches from the 4th through the 15th centuries would be most interesting.

    Based upon what we see in Catholic church music from the Renaissance onwards though, congregational singing doesn't seem to have been widespread during the 16th-18th centuries. With complex polyphonic mass settings that could only be sung by trained singers, "alternatim" masses involving verses played by organ solo, and complex orchestral masses with large choirs (like those of Mozart), there does not seem to be much which a congregation could sing during a mass in these time periods. In contrast, the Lutherans were introducing the "chorale" form in the 16th century.  This was basically the precursor to the standard 4 part hymns found in any standard 20th century "hymnal", whether Catholic or Protestant. These chorales were comparatively simple and short, and could easily be sung by a congregation. In the 19th and late 20th centuries, we saw some "Catholic" hymns arise that were sung by congregations (think of the popular ones sung in trad chapels like "Immaculate Mary", "Hail Holy Queen", etc.), as a sort of derivation of the Lutheran chorale/4 part hymn form. 

    Interestingly, pipe organs built during the Renaissance/Baroque period may sound different depending on whether they were built in Protestant or Catholic regions of Europe. Organs in Northern Germany and Scandinavia (Protestant strongholds) were generally more incisive in sound tone, and were suited to leading/supporting a church full of congregational singers. Organs in Catholic France, Southern Germany, and Austria were also powerful in sound, but more colorful than piercing, and were better suited to play specialized instrumental organ music or accompany the mass rather than lead congregational singing. While not hard and fast, this does seem to echo general trends regarding congregational singing (or lack thereof) in Catholic vs Protestant churches during these time periods.


    Offline Plenus Venter

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1410
    • Reputation: +1144/-90
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #11 on: September 04, 2023, 05:45:33 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • 1) Did Pope St. Pius X really include the word "attiva" in TLS, or was this slipped in later by someone else (and if so, why)?

    2) Was congregational singing an organic development of liturgical practice, consistent over the centuries until it was somehow eclipsed, only to be recovered by Pope St. Pius X?

    If both those questions could be affirmed, I would immediately abandon all my reservations on the subject (and possibly even if only the first could be affirmed).
    Is the debate over this word really relevant now that it is clear that we are instructed by Pope St Pius X's Cardinal Vicar of Rome:

    "In order to facilitate so important a work, it has seemed good to us to give a few practical rules to which BY ORDER OF THE HOLY FATHER, all persons are required to give ear.
    1. The best ecclesiastical traditions demand that the whole assembly of the faithful should join in the singing..."

    This, by order of the canonised antimodernist Pope who dedicated his pontificate to restoring all things in Christ. Where is the debate? Where are the reservations? Is this not necessarily the default position of all Traditional Catholics unless you hold certain facts that it is detrimental to the faith? 

    Popes Pius XI and XII continued in this vein, and Archbishop Lefebvre, but we will judge them all to have been hostage to the liturgical vandals? Surely that is not a Catholic attitude? I am not about to tell St Pius X and Archbishop Lefebvre that I will not accept their liturgical practice until I have done my own study making sure it is not some kind of modernist novelty, are you? 

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #12 on: September 04, 2023, 08:29:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Is the debate over this word really relevant now that it is clear that we are instructed by Pope St Pius X's Cardinal Vicar of Rome:

    "In order to facilitate so important a work, it has seemed good to us to give a few practical rules to which BY ORDER OF THE HOLY FATHER, all persons are required to give ear.
    1. The best ecclesiastical traditions demand that the whole assembly of the faithful should join in the singing..."

    This, by order of the canonised antimodernist Pope who dedicated his pontificate to restoring all things in Christ. Where is the debate? Where are the reservations? Is this not necessarily the default position of all Traditional Catholics unless you hold certain facts that it is detrimental to the faith?

    Popes Pius XI and XII continued in this vein, and Archbishop Lefebvre, but we will judge them all to have been hostage to the liturgical vandals? Surely that is not a Catholic attitude? I am not about to tell St Pius X and Archbishop Lefebvre that I will not accept their liturgical practice until I have done my own study making sure it is not some kind of modernist novelty, are you?

    It is absolutely essential to the debate:

    The Cardinal Vicar may have introduced St. Pius X's motu proprio, but it is the contents of that MP which are in dispute.

    As for the notion I am compelled to accept whatever liturgy Lefebvre accepted, I am not persuaded. 

    As I said to one Resistance priest who had no issue with the dialogue Mass:

    "Greetings Fr. X-

    Thank you for these helpful responses. 

    Yes, it is certainly true, as we were taught in the SSPX seminary (Liturgy I, a class in which I received a perfect score), that the modernist and subversive liturgical movement was ubiquitous and successful everywhere except the Anglo-Saxon countries, and the dialogue Mass was their first major victory.

    That the dialogue Mass predates the Council and was “normal” in France by then makes it pass for being “traditional,” but that it was a significant innovation animated by unCatholic liturgical principles is forgotten.

    It was unknown in the Catholic world prior to 1910’s, and of course, this innovation was a preparatory stage for the complete overhaul of the Roman rite.

    That Lefebvre accepted the dialogue Mass as normal was clearly a pastoral and uncritical decision (ie., it was already “normal” in Europe), and his battle was with the Council, nor preconciliar liturgical innovations.  But that Lefebvre’s liturgical preferences were uncritical is proven by his having initially used the 1965 missal in Econe (which was full of modernism), and also by the fact that even prior to his death, many parts of France and Germany say much of the Mass in the vernacular.

    Consequently, the argument from authority (ie., “Lefebvre wanted the dialogue Mass”) is not persuasive

    The same argument can be said of Pius XII’s experimental Novus Ordo of Holy Week: There is no way these experimental rites can be described as “traditional,” because they had only a 13 year existence in the history of the Church, and had to destroy 1,000 years of real tradition to prepare the terrain for the later experimentation which would become the Novus Ordo.

    With each passing year, liturgical scholarship reveals a greater understanding of the revolutionary nature of the unCatholic liturgical movement, it’s methods, and it’s goals, such that today even the Ecclesia Dei communities are reverting to the pre-1956 Holy Week.  It would be very ironic if the SSPX and Resistance became the most liturgically liberal groups in Tradition out of deference to Lefebvre! 

    A little story for you:  I recall Fr. Iscara teaching us about the liturgical movement, and how by 1920 it was no longer Catholic.  He taught us how the innovators proceeded, what their principles were, etc.  I raised my hand in class and asked, “But Fr. Iscara, if these same principles are all contained in the dialogue Mass, then why are we saying the dialogue Mass every Saturday?”  He looked at me and laughed, and said, “You need to go talk to the bishop.”

    It was at that moment I knew my concerns were valid, and that the incoherence between studying the history of a subversive liturgical movement which brought us to the Novus Ordo in order to fight that movement, while simultaneously accepting its intermediate products (experimental dialogue Mass; experimental Holy Week), was counterproductive. 

    It taught me that the SSPX did not have a principled liturgical position, but a practical one. 

    But if Lefebvre himself could change from the 1965 transitional missal to 1962 transitional missal, surely there is no reason it could not recover the traditional missal (especially since Lefebvre’s decisions in this regard were practical, and not doctrinal).

    What do you think?  I believe this is a healthy conversation, and should not cause any problems.  I do not believe resistance faithful who prefer the traditional rites to the experimental/transitional ones should be made to feel like traitors simply because they are honest about the history of the liturgical reform.

    Semper Idem,
    Sean Johnson



    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #13 on: September 04, 2023, 08:35:08 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • PS: Supposing it was all as you say, and St. Pius X actually did want congregational singing, you do realize that he did not compel it, right (i.e., the Chuch has always respected the sensibilities of the faithful, and never compelled them to respond in any particular way)?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Plenus Venter

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1410
    • Reputation: +1144/-90
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St Pius X Promoted Congregational Chant
    « Reply #14 on: September 04, 2023, 09:21:32 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • PS: Supposing it was all as you say, and St. Pius X actually did want congregational singing, you do realize that he did not compel it, right (i.e., the Chuch has always respected the sensibilities of the faithful, and never compelled them to respond in any particular way)?
    As I say, or as the Cardinal Vicar of Rome said, "which by order of the Holy Father all are required to give ear."? I am amazed you dispute that. It would take some pretty serious conspiracy facts (not theories) to refuse this as being Pope St Pius X's directive. It doesn't sound to me like he is inviting us to follow his liturgical reform if it does not offend our sensibilities, but rather, that he is restoring divine worship according to the will of Holy Mother Church. That the whole assembly of the faithful should join in the singing is the very first rule he lays down after stating that this is by order of the Holy Father. Let the scholars do their work. But let us continue to worship in the way that has been handed down to us until a more competent ecclesiastical authority determines otherwise. Or else we will have nothing but confusion and disunity in the Church. There is enough of that already.