interesting concidence:

12/29/2024 -- Bishop who consecreated Fr. Pfeiffer dies
01/29/2024 -- Bishop who trained Fr. Pfeiffer dies (not sure if he personally ordained him, as they swapped around a lot, but Fr. Pfeffer called him the father of his priesthood)

Here's an account of when he was cured at Lourdes ...

https://catholicforum.forumotion.com/t771-traditional-catholic-sedevacatist-cured-at-lourdes-one-of-practically-zero-since-vatican-ii-according-to-some

So, I was thinking about Bishop Webster in connection with Bishop? Pfeiffer, the one who messed up initially at least in attempting to consecrate Father Pfeiffer, and found that he had passed away on December 29 of 2024, so not long before Bishop Williamson, and was laid to rest at Boston by Bishop? Pfeiffer.

He was a friend of mine for some years, a good man, who had a down-to-earth sermon style reminiscent of a Father Corapi (of Novus Ordo fame, or, rather, infamy).

I was the only one in attendance when he received Minor Orders from Bishop Hesson (I drive from Cleveland to Philly to be there), and I went to some Pro Life Rosary rallies with him.

God rest his soul.

https://www.barlowfh.com/obituary/BishopNeal-Webster

Very sad to see him go. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't he one of the few to reject salvation outside the church and bod/bob?

I'm not one who holds the Thuc line to be doubtful, but Bishop Webster's line has some issues due to one Jean Laborie.

Bishop Webster was consecrated a bishop by Bishop Slupski (I don't believe there are any doubts about his line).

But he had been ordained to the priesthood by Bishop Timothy Henneberry.

Henneberry, in turn, was consecrated a bishop by a Bishop Terrasson.

Terrasson had been consecrated by Clemente Dominguez Gomez (of Palmar fame).  Apart from the fact that Gomez had no training and could easily have botched the Rite of Episcopal Consecration, this was likely valid ...

except, and here's the problem

Terrasson had been ordained a priest by in 1974 by Jean Laborie.

But in 1977 Bishop Thuc CONDITIONALLY consecrated Laborie.  There's no record of who ordained Laborie, but his pre-1977 consecrationS (plural) went as follows ...

[Laborie] had already been consecrated a bishop on 10/02/1966 at xxxxx by Jean Pierre Danyel, a bishop of the Sainte Église Celtique. Later he was consecrated sub conditione a bishop on 08/20/1968 at xxxxx by Louis Jean Stanislaus Canivet, a bishop known as "Patriarch Aloysius Basilius III" of the Patriarchate Orthodoxe de l'Europe Latine.

So his status in 1974 when he ordained Terrasson to the priesthood was one of clear positive doubt.  So much so, that in 1977, Bishop Thuc consecrated Laborie conditionally.

NOW ... there's an allegation that Terrasson had been conditionally ordained at some point before his consecration by Clemente.  But I've seen no proof for this whatsover.

So unless there's docuмentation/proof that Terrasson had been conditionally ordained before his consecration, the whole line is in doubt.

Consequently, we have to hold there to be positive doubt regarding the validity of Bishop Pfeiffer.

above is a post from Ladislaus from another thread (sorry, couldn't figure out how to put his name on the quote box)

above is a post from Ladislaus from another thread (sorry, couldn't figure out how to put his name on the quote box)

Thank you. Very informative.

interesting concidence:

12/29/2024 -- Bishop who consecreated Fr. Pfeiffer dies
01/29/2024 -- Bishop who trained Fr. Pfeiffer dies (not sure if he personally ordained him, as they swapped around a lot, but Fr. Pfeffer called him the father of his priesthood)

I called Pfeififer yesterday and he said he met Bishop Williamson at 14 (Same for myself) and he said Bishop Williamson was his spiritual father and led him to the priesthood (he told me Bp did ordain and trained him)

I think what you're referring to was in the same thread. https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/bp-neal-webster/15/

Yes, same thread.  I can't recall if he posted it here or whether he sent it to me by PM, but it certainly looked legitimate.

At that point, the priesthood of Terrasson was the missing link, and that was just because there was no mention of it on the "Boyle" site.  Just mentioned he had been ordained by Laborie (which is where the doubt would come in, since Laborie came through Old Catholic / Gallican lines).

Now, the early consecrations performed by Clemente were trustworthy, since he was assisted either by Bishop Sandler or Bishop Puga, both of whom had been Roman Rite priests (ordained well before Vatican II) for many years.

Question is how much those two kept an eye on Clemente during the conditional ordination, since the assistants there do not generally co-ordain (as they would co-consecrate), though I suspect probably valid given that Clemente, being a Spanish speaker, likely did not butcher the essential form too badly.

So my final verdict is probably valid, but with just enough positive doubt that I'd only ask them for Sacraments in danger of death ... since it is possible Clemente would have botched the conditional.

What's funny, though, is that the initial ordinations/consecration by +Thuc of Clemente and the others (Sandler, Puga, et al.) were 1000% valid even by Bishop Kelly's invented standards, with MANY witnesses, including competent ones (assistant priests ... ordained/trained before Vatican II).  So Clemente was 100% undoubtedly a valid bishop, with the big question mark being his training.

Now, after the first furious round of ordinations/consecrations by Clemente (with Sandler/Puga assisting), they started tampering with the Rites and it's anybody's guess after that.

With regard to Bishop? Pfeiffer, I've heard two different stories, in addition to Bishop?'s insistence the first try was valid, namely ... 

1) that they did it again in the Sacristy after the Consecration (since they caught it themselves ... even though evidently there was nothing to catch)
2) that they did it again the next day (after people went through the video and realized the problem)

But I've heard of no witnesses to the retries ... would would have been easy to film, and given how badly it was messed up the first time, whose word would we take that it was done right the secondt time, since Bishop? Pfeiffer insists the first one was good enough (contrary to everyone else's opinion).