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Author Topic: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?  (Read 302291 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #810 on: April 27, 2018, 07:44:52 AM »
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  • Hey, baboon, you keep assuming that Paul VI was the pope to prove that he's the pope.  "the pope is incapable of doing what the pope actually did".  Again, this is the very argument of sedevacantism that he was NOT in fact the pope.  You assume that he's the pope to prove that he's the pope.  Yes, that's a circular argument where you assume the conclusion in your premise.
    No, I do not have to prove the pope was the pope - it is you who have to prove he was not the pope - until then, the pope is the pope.

    That's just the way that works in the Catholic Church.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #811 on: April 27, 2018, 07:45:17 AM »
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  • The NO liturgy is not the Church's liturgy and Trent itself would have condemned it had it been perpetrated before Trent.
    The NO liturgy was promulgated by the man you call the Pope of the Catholic Church. Therefore, according to you (regardless of what you say), it was promulgated by the Catholic Church.  As such you have no right to condemn it.  
    Revenge not yourselves, my dearly beloved; but give place unto wrath, for it is written: Revenge is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord. (Romans 12:19)


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #812 on: April 27, 2018, 07:46:05 AM »
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  • If Paul VI was the legitimate Pope, then indeed the NO is the Church's Liturgy.
    Bingo.
    Revenge not yourselves, my dearly beloved; but give place unto wrath, for it is written: Revenge is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord. (Romans 12:19)

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #813 on: April 27, 2018, 07:48:17 AM »
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  • No, I do not have to prove the pope was the pope - it is yo0u who have to prove he was not the pope - until then, the pope is the pope.
    That's just the way that works in the Catholic Church.
    Then the NO is the pope's and the Church's liturgy.
    Revenge not yourselves, my dearly beloved; but give place unto wrath, for it is written: Revenge is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord. (Romans 12:19)

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #814 on: April 27, 2018, 07:49:34 AM »
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  • If Paul VI was the legitimate Pope, then indeed the NO is the Church's Liturgy. 
    ^^^^Confused.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #815 on: April 27, 2018, 07:51:13 AM »
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  • The NO liturgy was promulgated by the man you call the Pope of the Catholic Church. Therefore, according to you (regardless of what you say), it was promulgated by the Catholic Church.  As such you have no right to condemn it.  
    You are confused.
    Catholics condemn evil no matter where it comes from.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #816 on: April 27, 2018, 07:52:38 AM »
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  • You are confused.
    Catholics condemn evil no matter where it comes from.
    No, you (and the rest of the sedeplenists) are confused.  Evil liturgy doesn't come from the Catholic Church.
    Revenge not yourselves, my dearly beloved; but give place unto wrath, for it is written: Revenge is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord. (Romans 12:19)

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #817 on: April 27, 2018, 07:55:37 AM »
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  • No, you (and the rest of the sedeplenists) are confused.  Evil liturgy doesn't come from the Catholic Church.
    That's why it is not the liturgy of the Catholic Church. Understand or are you still confused?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #818 on: April 27, 2018, 07:57:21 AM »
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  • That's why it is not the liturgy of the Catholic Church. Understand or are you still confused?
    If THE POPE promulgated the NO liturgy then it IS the liturgy of the Catholic Church.
    Understand or are you still confused?
    Revenge not yourselves, my dearly beloved; but give place unto wrath, for it is written: Revenge is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord. (Romans 12:19)

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #819 on: April 27, 2018, 08:03:04 AM »
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  • If THE POPE promulgated the NO liturgy then it IS the liturgy of the Catholic Church.
    Understand or are you still confused?
    You were correct the first time when you said: "Evil liturgy doesn't come from the Catholic Church."

    The pope might be many different things to many different people, but what he is not, is the Church.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #820 on: April 27, 2018, 08:43:59 AM »
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  • You were correct the first time when you said: "Evil liturgy doesn't come from the Catholic Church."

    The pope might be many different things to many different people, but what he is not, is the Church.
    So you mean to say that the main liturgy used by the clergy of Catholic Church, and the only one allowed in the Latin Rite for lengthy periods of time(Latin mass was barred except under very specific circuмstances for YEARS), is not the Church's liturgy? The liturgy celebrated by the Pope and the only liturgy which may be performed by every priest without restrictions and special circuмstances, is not the Church's liturgy?
    What exactly is the definition of the Church's liturgy then? How is the Novus Ordo rite NOT the Church's liturgy? 


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #821 on: April 27, 2018, 09:17:59 AM »
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  • You were correct the first time when you said: "Evil liturgy doesn't come from the Catholic Church."

    The pope might be many different things to many different people, but what he is not, is the Church.
    The pope is the Visible Head of the Catholic Church, the Vicar of Christ to ALL Catholics.  And whatever liturgy he promulgates is the liturgy of the Catholic Church.

    If any one saith, that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, which the Catholic Church makes use of in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety, rather than offices of piety; let him be anathema. - Council of Trent
    Revenge not yourselves, my dearly beloved; but give place unto wrath, for it is written: Revenge is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord. (Romans 12:19)

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #822 on: April 27, 2018, 10:44:42 AM »
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  • The only licit, 100% certainly valid and 100% pure liturgy is the 1962 rite/missal, which is the descendant from Pope St Pius V's Quo Primum.  It is the only rite which is REQUIRED under pain of sin, and which is legally certain to be approved by the papacy.

    The novus ordo liturgy is illicit, most probably invalid, and immoral (to varying degrees, both in form and circuмstances).  It is also not required for salvation, hence it is not the rite of the latin church.  Quo Primum's rite is still the rite.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #823 on: April 27, 2018, 10:54:24 AM »
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  • The only licit, 100% certainly valid and 100% pure liturgy is the 1962 rite/missal, which is the descendant from Pope St Pius V's Quo Primum.  It is the only rite which is REQUIRED under pain of sin, and which is legally certain to be approved by the papacy.

    The novus ordo liturgy is illicit, most probably invalid, and immoral (to varying degrees, both in form and circuмstances).  It is also not required for salvation, hence it is not the rite of the latin church.  Quo Primum's rite is still the rite.
    Are you suggesting that Pope Paul VI didn't approve his own mass?

    The Novus Ordo liturgy cannot be illict or invalid. It was brought in properly by the Pope. And Quo Primum's is not the rite at all. The Church clearly states that the Novus Ordo Mass is the main form of mass, and the celebration of the Tridentine Mass is subject to a number of limitations(and indeed for many years the vast majority of clergy were barred from celebrating it entirely). 

    Also which one is the main rite is irrelevant. First of all, we already know from Trent that the Church is allowed to have more than one rite, as it allowed the continuation of rites over 200 years old. We also know from Trent that "If anyone says that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs which the Catholic Church uses in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety rather than stimulants to piety, let him be anathema."

    It does not say if anyone says that ceremonies, etc. used in the MAIN RITE of mass. It just says which the Catholic Church uses in celebration of masses. So that applies to every rite, just as it applied to the rites over 200 years old at the time of Trent. Therefore it applies to Novus Ordo as well. 

    I'd also like to see on what basis you call a mass invalid and illict that was promulgated by a valid Pope.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #824 on: April 27, 2018, 11:10:08 AM »
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  • The pope is the Visible Head of the Catholic Church, the Vicar of Christ to ALL Catholics.  And whatever liturgy he promulgates is the liturgy of the Catholic Church.

    If any one saith, that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, which the Catholic Church makes use of in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety, rather than offices of piety; let him be anathema. - Council of Trent
    You are still confused 2V. Trent's teaching is certainly true, so why do you believe that the conciliar church's liturgy is the Catholic Church's liturgy? Trent is most assuredly not referring to the conciliar liturgy, a liturgy it surely would have condemned. Not sure how that is not obvious to you.

    Because the pope promulgated the conciliar church's liturgy, you wrongfully declare that liturgy to be Catholic - but you making that claim, thankfully does not make it so. Seems like the fact that the pope promulgated a liturgy for the conciliar church should be obvious by now, I mean, you left the NO what, 8 or 10 years ago now?

    The reason this crisis has gotten to this point is because people believed the lies they were taught, the lie that whatever the pope said/taught/wanted was infallible and infallibly safe, that whatever the pope in union with all the bishops of the world teach, is infallible, that all councils are by default, infallible, and each of these lies require our absolute obedience, submission of faith and allegiance or we'd go to hell.

    Even sede's adhere to these lies with veracious claws for the sake of denouncing the pope - quite iniquitous really.

    Now the crazy thing is, if they would just use the reason that God gave them, then they would realize that if those were not lies, if those lies were in fact "dogmas of faith" as Cantarella and lad and the rest of the sedes say that they believe but really don't, then we would ALL be bound to the conciliar church and it's liturgy. The reason we are not bound is because they are evil - not because a pope cannot promulgate an evil liturgy or there is no pope.

    But rather than see through the lies, they fall right into them and instead of realizing they were fooled into believing lies, they cling to the lies as if they are dogma in order to come up with wild conspiracy theories and ideas about the pope not being the pope, there are no cardinals or bishops - save the one or two hiding in the jungle somewhere, and they imagine that the "magisterium" which cannot defect has in fact defected but they know that is impossible.

    As I said, the whole sede scene is really quite iniquitous.





    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse