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Author Topic: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?  (Read 302296 times)

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Offline forlorn

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #735 on: April 22, 2018, 11:48:55 AM »
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  • Great summary, Drew.  By and large, personal sedevacantism (i.e. outside of a Church decision) is an extreme over-reaction to the extreme errors of heresy.  It is a human attempt to deal with spiritual chaos.  While it is psychologically and emotionally understandable, it is not catholic because it views supernatural things - the Faith, the Mass, and Divine Truth - through a natural lens.  It attempts to fix a Divine problem without following God's Divine Plan - which is to wait for the Church to act.  As has been said many times by various posters, it is proven that personal sedevacantism is fruitless, both on a practical level and from God's point of view, when the result of accepting this view leads to the final and unanswerable question:  "So we've gotten rid of the bad pope...now what?"
    Wait for the Pope who actively preaches heresy and celebrates a false rite every Sunday to condemn himself? A Pope who, by virtue of his heresy, is not a member of the Church he leads. A Pope who is still somehow apparently valid and yet you completely ignore and reject all his authority.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #736 on: April 22, 2018, 11:56:08 AM »
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  • God can use the Church to correct a pope (as some Cardinals recently corrected 'Amoris Laeticia').  God can also end a papacy anytime He likes, through death, a fact which you fail to remember.  Just as war is a punishment for sin; bad leaders are also a punishment.  God can end the punishment at anytime.  For the present, I suspect He is using it to separate the sheep from the goats.  Nothing happens by accident with God or without His permission.


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #737 on: April 22, 2018, 12:06:24 PM »
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  • .
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVVh2vdhDeQ&feature=youtu.be&t=660


    Within the first several minutes Fr. Hesse says: "I am not today discussing if the sedevacantists are right or not. I personally believe that the pope is the pope because he is not yet in formal heresy."

    This is the meat and potatoes of the Recognize and Resist position. It was, as far as I know, the official position of the SSPX and Archbishop Lefebvre. John Paul 2 had a distorted notion of Tradition but believed he was acting in accordance with Catholic Tradition. I can understand this position.

    However, some of those in the Resistance claim that they are the only ones continuing in the true path blazed out by Archbishop Lefebvre just because they are militant anti-sedevacantists (sometimes apparently more so than anti-modernists or anti-Feeneyites). This doesn't help the Crisis but only adds to it because they attack their fellow Catholics on the grounds in the name of being true to Archbishop Lefebvre, which if examined closer doesn't exactly seem to be the case.

    Most recently and especially with the alleged pontificate of Bergoglio we see those of the Recognize and Resist position come out as being dogmatic sedeplenists. Books are written entitled "the heretical pope" affirming that a pope can indeed fall into (or always have been) a manifest and formal heretic. Sean Johnson argues in official Resistance publications that the identity of the pope is a dogmatic fact and applies this to the alleged pontificate of Francis, thus excommunicating his fellow Traditional Catholic brethren from the tiny remnant in which he finds himself.

    Suddenly, those claiming to be the only true spiritual sons of Archbishop Lefebvre, while casting into doubt the Catholicity of all other Traditional Catholics, waste great energies to defend the alleged papacy of Bergoglio because, they claim, a formal and manifest heretic continues to be pope and it is a dogmatic fact. You have to be extremely ignorant or foolish to truly believe that Fr. Hesse, Bishop De Castro Mayer and Archbishop Lefebvre would support such claims had they been alive today.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #738 on: April 22, 2018, 12:30:17 PM »
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  • God can use the Church to correct a pope (as some Cardinals recently corrected 'Amoris Laeticia').  God can also end a papacy anytime He likes, through death, a fact which you fail to remember.  Just as war is a punishment for sin; bad leaders are also a punishment.  God can end the punishment at anytime.  For the present, I suspect He is using it to separate the sheep from the goats.  Nothing happens by accident with God or without His permission.
    To separate the sheep from the goats? All the Vatican 2 Church is doing is welcoming in the modernists and relativists, while excommunicating good honest traditionalists like +Lefebvre. It's kicking out the sheep and welcoming the goats with open arms.

    Offline drew

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #739 on: April 22, 2018, 04:17:51 PM »
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  • Within the first several minutes Fr. Hesse says: "I am not today discussing if the sedevacantists are right or not. I personally believe that the pope is the pope because he is not yet in formal heresy."

    This is the meat and potatoes of the Recognize and Resist position. It was, as far as I know, the official position of the SSPX and Archbishop Lefebvre. John Paul 2 had a distorted notion of Tradition but believed he was acting in accordance with Catholic Tradition. I can understand this position.

    However, some of those in the Resistance claim that they are the only ones continuing in the true path blazed out by Archbishop Lefebvre just because they are militant anti-sedevacantists (sometimes apparently more so than anti-modernists or anti-Feeneyites). This doesn't help the Crisis but only adds to it because they attack their fellow Catholics on the grounds in the name of being true to Archbishop Lefebvre, which if examined closer doesn't exactly seem to be the case.

    Most recently and especially with the alleged pontificate of Bergoglio we see those of the Recognize and Resist position come out as being dogmatic sedeplenists. Books are written entitled "the heretical pope" affirming that a pope can indeed fall into (or always have been) a manifest and formal heretic. Sean Johnson argues in official Resistance publications that the identity of the pope is a dogmatic fact and applies this to the alleged pontificate of Francis, thus excommunicating his fellow Traditional Catholic brethren from the tiny remnant in which he finds himself.

    Suddenly, those claiming to be the only true spiritual sons of Archbishop Lefebvre, while casting into doubt the Catholicity of all other Traditional Catholics, waste great energies to defend the alleged papacy of Bergoglio because, they claim, a formal and manifest heretic continues to be pope and it is a dogmatic fact. You have to be extremely ignorant or foolish to truly believe that Fr. Hesse, Bishop De Castro Mayer and Archbishop Lefebvre would support such claims had they been alive today.

    Centroamerica,
     
    You may be right about Archbishop Lefebvre but not about Fr. Hesse.
     
    I am grateful for what Archbishop Lefebvre did but I also recognize two great errors that he saddled traditional Catholics with that are still present in those he formed in the priesthood which have led many of them into S&S. Firstly, he did not hold Dogma as his rule of faith.  This is evident in his belief that a Jew as a Jew, a Muslim as a Muslim, a Hindu as a Hindu, a Protestant as a Protestant, etc., by virtue of trying to be "good" Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Protestants, etc., could be invisible members of the Catholic Church, in the state of grace, temples of the Holy Ghost, and heirs to the Kingdom of Heaven.  He followed the error of the 1949 Holy Office Letter which taught that every Dogma that touches upon what is necessary for salvation as a necessity of means, that is, explicit faith in a divinely revealed Truth, reception of the sacraments, membership in the Church and submission to the Roman Pontiff are subject to being reinterpreted by the magisterium and taken in a metaphorical or non-literal sense.  He actually followed the error that treated these revealed Truths as mere commands that did not bind anyone in cases of necessity, excessive physical or moral difficulty, or any of the other conditions that mitigate or excuse from the obligation of obedience to a superior.   
     
    The second error of Archbishop Lefebvre is that he held that the Divine Liturgy was a matter of mere discipline. In +Lefebvre's defense it should be added that there has been a wealth of liturgical publications since 1990 that he had not seen which may have changed his views on this important matter. And even though he did not accept Dogma literally, he had enough innate Catholic sense to recoil at the Prayer Meeting of Assisi which lead to his consecration of the four bishops.
     
    Both of these errors ultimately make defending the Faith and our ecclesiastical traditions impossible. Dogma is the proximate rule of faith.  Dogmas are Truths "fallen from heaven."  They are immutable in both there form and matter, that is, in the Truth they define and the words by which they are defined. Dogmas are divinely revealed Truths in the category of truth/falsehood and not ever to be treated as if belonging to the category of authority/obedience.  Immemorial ecclesiastical traditions are necessary attributes of the faith that make it knownable and communicable to others. They therefore cannot be matters of mere discipline.
     
    Canon Gregory Hesse did not follow these two errors.
     
    Pope Francis is a manifest heretic but so were his conciliar predecessors. There is no more reason to become a S&S under Francis/Bergoglio than there was with his predecessors.  It is in fact disappointing to see conservative Catholics recoil at Pope Francis/Bergoglio and wish for the return of Pope Benedict/Ratzinger. They are the ones that traditional Catholics should be recruiting but that will only happen when we make an open appeal to the immutable Catholic Dogmas as our rule of faith, and uphold the right that every Catholic possess to the immemorial "received and approved" rites of the Church.
     
    Lastly, there is no real reason a manifest heretic cannot be pope. Heresy itself does not materially remove a baptized person from the Church. Every Church Father held that in the parable of the cockle and wheat that the cockle represents heretics. Our Lord counsels that they remain until the harvest, but the Church, which is her right, has determined that in her judgment, if the individual cockle is more harmful to the wheat, it may be uprooted before the harvest. The heresy of Pope Francis is his personal sin and those who recognize him as pope, although we suffer under his sins, are no more tainted by his heresy than Jesus Christ was by the Pharisees and Sadducees who were sitting on the "Chair of Moses". The conciliar popes are punishments for our sins and only by prayer and penance will we obtain the mercy of God to cleanse His Church.
     
    The only thing you have to do is keep the faith and do all you can to insure that those for whom you are responsible for do so as well. S&S leads necessarily to heresy and schism and to justify this disaster they corrupt the Magisterium, Dogma, the liturgy, the moral law, and canon law. They end up in a church of their own making that cannot be the Catholic Church because it has no pope, no Magisterium and no intent to ever get one.  They have no intent because they have no material means or instrumental means to ever correct the problem. The S&S church is permanently deficient of necessary attributes that identify the Catholic Church.

    Drew


    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #740 on: April 23, 2018, 05:18:45 AM »
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  • Thank you, Sean Johnson, for posting this article. Leave it to sedevacantes to deceive. And Ladislaus, all you can do is insult the authors, your MO. 

     
    WHY FR. KRAMER AND THE SEDEVACANTISTS
     MISUNDERSTAND BELLARMINE

     
           In True of False Pope?, we demonstrate that the Sedevacantists have entirely misinterpreted Bellarmine’s opinion concerning the loss of office for a heretical Pope. As we have noted in recent feature articles, their erroneous interpretation of the famous Fourth and Fifth Opinions is evident by reading what Bellarmine wrote just a few paragraphs earlier (in the Second and Third Opinions).  But they would not know this, because these additional paragraphs were never translated and posted online, which is where almost all the Sedevacantists get their information. Their handlers conveniently translated only those portions of Bellarmine which they were able to “interpret” to “support” their position. 
           The portion they have translated consists of Bellarmine’s attempted refutation of Cajetan’s opinion on how a Pope loses his office (Fourth Opinion), and Bellarmine’s own opinion (the Fifth Opinion). By providing these opinions alone, and by not explaining (or not knowing) what Cajetan’s position entailed (and hence what Bellarmine was objecting to), the priests and bishops of the Sedevacantist sect were able to convince unsuspecting souls that Bellarmine’s own opinion supported their Sedevacantist position, when, in reality, it does not. By this deceitful tactic, these Sedevacantist clergy were able to lead countless souls out of the Church and into their heretical sects.  
           The Novus Ordo trained priest, Fr, Paul Leonard Kramer, has embraced this erroneous interpretation of Bellarmine, hook, line and sinker, and has been causing further confusion by spreading it to a new group of Catholics via is Facebook Page. As we will show in this article, John of St. Thomas, who is one of the main commentators on the debate between Cajetan and Bellarmine, directly refutes the Sedevacantists’ false interpretation of Bellarmine, and confirms exactly what we have been saying for years. This is because John of St. Thomas knew Cajetan’s opinion well, and hence also knew what Bellarmine was objecting to. Understanding Cajetan’s opinion (which almost no Sedevacantist does, since his teaching is found nowhere on the Sedevacantist websites) is the key to understanding what Bellarmine meant.
     
    For the whole article:
    http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/whyfr.html

    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #741 on: April 23, 2018, 05:27:18 AM »
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  • 5) The Bishops around the world in union with the Pope do not need a gathering of a General Council in order to teach infallibly. These teachings are free from heretical error, also and Catholics must give assent.
    This doctrine is strictly Novus Ordo Cantarella. This NO doctrine you keep referencing entirely ignores that universality in time is also necessary for a doctrine to be guaranteed infallible. V1 decreed that “all those things are to be believed as found in scripture and tradition...”
     
    All the "Bishops around the world in union with the Pope" teach the new and novel teachings of V2, a new and novel teaching, by definition, cannot be “found in tradition.” A novel teaching is a teaching that has not been taught in all times and therefore lacks universality, therefore is not infallible.

    Why on earth do you keep promoting this NO doctrine when you do not even believe it yourself?

    Do you realize that if you actually believed it was a teaching of the Church, that you and all the rest of us would be bound to be in league with all those people who actually *do* believe the NO doctrine you keep referencing, and who actually *do* give their assent to the V2 teachings? - the reason they wrongfully give their assent is because unlike you, they actually they believe that  "These teachings are free from heretical error and Catholics must give assent."?
     
    You are very confused Cantarella, you are in a terrible situation with your loss of faith in everything - even the NO doctrine you keep referencing.  :pray:
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #742 on: April 23, 2018, 05:59:29 AM »
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  • Cantarella, this is the dogma as quoted directly from V1:

    Quote
    Wherefore, by divine and catholic faith all those things are to be believed, which are contained in the word of God as found in scripture and tradition, and which are proposed by the church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal magisterium.


    This is that same dogma, only in this quote, I replaced the words "in her ordinary and universal magisterium", with Pope Pius IX's explanation of what the ordinary and universal magisterium is, as he taught it from Tuas Libenter. The dogma's meaning has not been changed.

    Quote
    Wherefore, by divine and catholic faith all those things are to be believed, which are contained in the word of God as found in scripture and tradition, and which are proposed by the church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or "all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world. (...and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith.")

    The only commonality the true dogma has with the false NO doctrine you keep referencing, are the words, "spread over the whole world".

    In the false NO doctrine you constantly reference as if it is a true teaching of the Church, it is the bishops who are infallible - whether spread over the whole world, or not, just as long as they're in union with the pope. Again, this is a false teaching, do not believe it! -  and this false teaching has proven to be the cause of the loss of faith of billions.

    In the true dogma, it is the teachings that are infallible, provided those teachings have been taught by the Church always and everywhere. This is the same as saying: "in her ordinary and universal magisterium."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #743 on: April 23, 2018, 03:41:15 PM »
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  • To bring things back on topic, does Fr. Ringrose believe in Flat Earth? ;D :o ??? ;)
    We're working on it.....

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #744 on: April 23, 2018, 04:57:48 PM »
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  • Quote
    These types of authorities have no effect on Drew
    Coming from the man who disagrees with Cantarella that everything from a council is infallible, it’s the height of contadiction for you to declare Drew is in the wrong, when you would be as well. 

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #745 on: April 23, 2018, 05:06:48 PM »
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  • Coming from the man who disagrees with Cantarella that everything from a council is infallible, it’s the height of contadiction for you to declare Drew is in the wrong, when you would be as well.
    Cantarella never said that. What she said is what the Church teaches, that all matters of faith defined at Ecuмenical Councils are infallible. Disciplines are not, because disciplines are not matters of faith or religion. They are neither fallible or infallible. They're just rules of Church governance that may be changed, and therefore can neither be true or false. They are just either in effect or are not. And if they are in effect they must be obeyed until revised. 
    But all teachings and doctrines of an Ecuмenical Council are infallible. 


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #746 on: April 23, 2018, 05:14:09 PM »
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  • I’ve been on this thread from the start.  She’s said it multiple times.   Go back and re-read every post.  Have fun. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #747 on: April 23, 2018, 06:42:37 PM »
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  • Yep, I know, and Ladislaus disagrees with you, while still saying your arguments are good.  Nonsensical of him.

    Offline drew

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #748 on: April 24, 2018, 12:38:15 AM »
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  • :jester:

    Well, OK, Drew, if you say so.  Hey, at least it avoids the ACTUAL heresies of your position ... rather than the imagined ones of ours.

    Ladislaus,

    I thought this thread was through with your Ladislausisms, those little bumkin notions of yours that are so entertaining.

    You have accused me of “heresy” because I have taken Dogma literally. For you, the “Magisterium is the rule of faith,” so Dogma must be forever interpreted by the magisterium and anyone taking Dogma literally making it there rule of faith is guilty of “private interpretation” and therefore a “Protestant” and therefore a “heretic.”  But Ladislaus, heresy is the failure to keep Dogma as the rule of faith. That is what heresy is by definition. You have turned the very definition of heresy on its head.  

    Should anyone be surprised that you do not know the definition of heresy?  After all, you are the one who did not know the definition of "supernatural faith."  Remember? I had to correct you on that one.  And, after all, you are the one who thought that the “Magisterium was not part of (the content) of divine revelation." And after that big mistake, you thought that the “Magisterium was not part of (the act) of divine revelation," an even bigger mistake.  You are the guy who did not even know what hylomorphism means and that if you split the form and matter of a material being you cause a substantial change.  From that big blunder you split the definition of faith dividing its two necessary attributes that make supernatural faith what it is.  And then you split the office of the pope dividing its form and matter and thought no one would notice that you destroyed it.

    Since heresy is failure to keep the faith, and you do not even know what supernatural faith is or that Dogma is the proximate rule of faith, how could you possible know what heresy is?

    You know what Ladislaus? All the S&Sers can get together and elect you as their pope and then everything you say will become necessarily true.

    Glad to have you back on this thread for comic relief.

    Drew  

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #749 on: April 24, 2018, 06:53:19 AM »
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  • What Sean Johnson hasn't figured out is that the Salza/Siscoe critique of Fr. Kramer's interpretation of Bellarmine is based on the totally gratuitous and false assumptions that, 1) Fr. Kramer does not understand Cajetan's argument, which Bellarmine refutes. (Although Salza & Siscoe speak only of Bellarmine's "attempted refutation" of Cajetan.) Cajetan's argument is presented in my book. I know perfectly well what Bellarmine was refuting; and I present a much more in depth critical examination of Bellarmine's doctrine on this point than anyone else who is writing on the topic at the present time; and 2) that Fr. Kramer fails to take into account Bellarmine's refutation of the Second Opinion; according to which a pope who is put into the papacy by men is not removed from the papacy without the judgment of men. I have fully explained this point in Part III of my soon to be published book; which is that a secret heretic cannot simply fall from office in the manner of a manifest heretic who publlicly defects from the faith and ceases by himself to be pope. Only when the formal heresy becomes publicly manifest can an officeholder in the Church fall from office automatically (ipso facto); without any declaration (sine ulla declaratione), and without any judgment by authority, but by operation of the law itself (ipso jure); as is explicitly set forth in canon 188 n. 4 in the 1917 Code of Canon Law, and is so explained in the 1952 Commentary the Pontifical Faculty of the University of Salamanca, (and remains the same in the 1983 Code, as Ecclesiastical Faculty Canon Law of the University of Navarre explain in their 2005 Commentary). Salza & Siscoe have exhumed a defunct opinion that was totally abandoned after Vatican I (Pastor Æternus) solemnly defined that the pope is the supreme judge in ALL CASES THAT REFER TO ECCLESIASTICAL EXAMINATION , and condemns the proposition that anyone can reject his judgment or judge against his judgment; or appeal to an ecuмenical council against his judgment:

    Constitutio Dogmatica «Pastor Aeternus» Concilii Vaticani I: Et quoniam divino Apostolici primatus iure Romanus Pontifex universae Ecclesiae praeest, docemus etiam et declaramus, eum esse iudicem supremum fidelium (Pii PP. VI Breve, Super soliditate d. 28 Nov. 1786), et in omnibus causis ad examen ecclesiasticuм spectantibus ad ipsius posse iudicium recurri (Concil. Oecuм. Lugdun. II); Sedis vero Apostolicae, cuius auctoritate maior non est, iudicium a nemine fore retractandum, neque cuiquam de eius licere iudicare iudicio (Ep. Nicolai 1 ad Michaelem Imporatorem). Quare a recto veritatis tramite aberrant, qui affirmant, licere ab iudiciis Romanorum Pontificuм ad oecuмenicuм Concilium tamquam ad auctoritatem Romano Pontifice superiorem appellare.

       The definition makes no allowance for any exception; and its wording positively excludes such an interpretation; ERGO: The Salza/Siscoe doctrine which professes against the above quoted dogmatic definition, to wit, that papal heresy is an exception to the doctrine of papal injudicability defined in the quoted text of that Dogmatic Constitution, is HERESY.