Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?  (Read 302284 times)

0 Members and 7 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Samuel

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 225
  • Reputation: +287/-120
  • Gender: Male
Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #645 on: April 17, 2018, 11:37:54 PM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!1
  • In the Tridentine Profession of Faith Roman Catholics swear TRUE obedience to the Pope.

    Your position is not that of TRUE obedience.

    Actually, your position advocates quite the opposite. It promotes disobedience towards the Roman Pontiff, "resistance to his face", as they say.

    In our position, we ignore the impostor. In yours, you disobey the Pope, in opposition to the Tridentine profession of Faith.

    Which of the two do you think is more in accord with the Roman Catholic religion?

    Please explain the difference between:

    1. We have what looks like a good and valid pope who one day teaches error. Some people reject the error, but keep the pope.

    2. We have what looks like a good and valid pope who one day teaches error. Some people reject the error, as well as the pope.

    Which of these two positions do you believe is that of "TRUE obedience"?

    Hint: you may wish to consult St. Thomas Aquinas on the "TRUE meaning of obedience"!

    Offline Samuel

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 225
    • Reputation: +287/-120
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #646 on: April 18, 2018, 12:19:26 AM »
  • Thanks!5
  • No Thanks!3
  • This is a discussion of the deaf.

    Simple questions are "down thumbed" and ignored, in typical sedehypocrisy style.

    I have better things to do. I hope to see you all in Heaven one day. Good luck!

    PS : Drew, I am still thinking about your position on the Rule of Faith. I am not convinced, but I will let you know via PM if I want to further discuss this with you.


    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14607
    • Reputation: +5998/-899
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #647 on: April 18, 2018, 03:40:06 AM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!1
  • In the Tridentine Profession of Faith Roman Catholics swear TRUE obedience to the Pope.

    Your position is not that of TRUE obedience.

    Actually, your position advocates quite the opposite. It promotes disobedience towards the Roman Pontiff, "resistance to his face", as they say.


    In our position, we ignore the impostor. In yours, you disobey the Pope, in opposition to the Tridentine Profession of Faith.

    Which of these two above do you think is more in accord with the Holy Roman Catholic religion?
    Cantarella, his position is that of TRUE obedience, same as all Catholics. Your issue is that his position is not one of BLIND obedience.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 11816
    • Reputation: +7392/-2170
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #648 on: April 18, 2018, 10:06:20 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    We reject the Novus Ordo Mass simply because it is promulgated by an anti-Pope,
    You reject the novus ordo because you believe Paul VI was an anti-pope, yet you believe he was an anti-pope BECAUSE the novus ordo is not catholic.

    CIRCULAR REASONING TO THE EXTREME!

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 11816
    • Reputation: +7392/-2170
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #649 on: April 18, 2018, 10:12:48 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    At the end of the day, you reduce the Magisterium to nothing more than a man (the Pope) or a group of men (Fathers of Vatican II) opining about doctrinal matters.  If what they happen to say is true, then it has authority.  If what they happen to say is false (by my judgment), then it has no authority.
    If they do not engage the solemn magisterium and teach 'with certainty of faith' then their magisterium is FALLIBLE and CONDITIONAL, ergo, yes - they are teaching with their simple authority inherent in their offices as simple bishops, or theologians.

    And yes, in this case, the litmus test is whether or not their fallible teachings AGREE WITH TRADITION and the UNIVERSAL MAGISTERIUM (which is the CONSTANT teachings over the 2,000 years of the church, not (as you incorrectly define it) as being "universal" just because it came from an ecuмenical council.)  The word "universal" means over the course of Church history.  It refers to the past magisteriums of the Church; it does not refer to the PRESENT DAY in any scenario.  If you would change your mindset on this, you might figure things out.


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 11816
    • Reputation: +7392/-2170
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #650 on: April 18, 2018, 10:15:22 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Do you think that rejecting an Ecunemical Council and a Liturgical Rite promulgated by the legitimate Pope is true obedience in any way?
    Neither V2 nor the novus ordo is required to be accepted 100%, nor attended at all.  You can't reject what is not required.

    Your agenda prevents you from seeing the Truth.

    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6789
    • Reputation: +3467/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #651 on: April 18, 2018, 10:22:53 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • It is a quintessential sign of the heretic and the schismatic to think and act in hostility against the Roman Pontiff.  

    The progressives/liberals in the conciliar church believe that the Pope should absoulutely be followed without question. I guess that's one thing you have in common with them. However, I don't think it's an act of hostility to not follow a pope in his errors.




    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 11816
    • Reputation: +7392/-2170
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #652 on: April 18, 2018, 10:29:52 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Also, I notice another contradiction in your position. Whereas you reject Vatican II Council and the conciliar Popes on the basis of not having defined any "dogmas" or ex-cathedra statements; you are rather quick to condemn Pope Honorius of formal heresy when it is obvious that he did not engage the infallible Magisterium, defined any doctrine, or pronounce an ex-cathedra statement. 
    There's no contradiction.  Pope Honorius was labeled a heretic.  The post-conciliar popes are/will be labeled as heretics (at some point).  Neither taught error using their infallibility (which God would never allow anyway).  All of these pope's errors should be (and must be) ignored, if one wants to get to heaven.  A layman in either case has the responsibility to 'stick with Tradition' and worship God in the only, True way.  There is nothing else for the layman to do - his job is not to judge the pope, nor consider his seat vacant, nor run around to try to "fix" the Church.  This is all God's responsibility, for it is HIS Church, not ours.


    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6789
    • Reputation: +3467/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #653 on: April 18, 2018, 11:07:31 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yet another case of conflating simple obedience with assent to Magisterium and Universal Discipline ... on purpose in order to make this specious argument over and over again.

    Says someone who believes that I'm a heretic for believing that Francis is the Pope, right?

    You've said twice, in the past, that I'm a heretic because I believe that Francis is the Pope.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1430
    • Reputation: +1365/-142
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #654 on: April 18, 2018, 11:33:06 AM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!1
  • Regarding the case of Pope Honorius, I could take side with the Gallicans and other enemies of the Papacy on his case, but as a Roman Catholic why in the world should I ever do that?

    I rather take side with the Church fathers in Vatican I Council when defining the dogma of Papal Infallibility, as well Pope Leo XII when in the letter of confirmation of the Council, when he clearly interprets it as intending to criticize Honorius not for error of belief, but rather for "imprudent economy of silence". In other words,  he was condemned, not for having taught error, nor as a formal heretic, but only for not acting proactively against the propagation of Monotheletism.

    This is the Catholic version.

    Also, I notice another contradiction in your position. Whereas you reject Vatican II Council and the conciliar Popes on the basis of not having defined any "dogmas" or ex-cathedra statements; you are rather quick to condemn Pope Honorius of formal heresy when it is obvious that he did not engage the infallible Magisterium, defined any doctrine, or pronounce an ex-cathedra statement.

    It is the quintessential sign of the heretic and the schismatic to think and act in hostility against the Roman Pontiff.  

    Cantarella,
    Have you gone mad? Where did Drew "condemn Pope Honorius of formal heresy"? Let me refresh your mind since Drew has a long day at work today:


    Quote
    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/the-heretical-pope-fallacy/msg586898/#msg586898
     
    D. M. Drew:
    There are a number of problems with your reply to Sr. Marianne Lorraine Trouve on December 20.
     
    Firstly, no Church father or doctor or magisterial docuмent has ever claimed that each individual pope possessed a "never-failing faith."  St. Thomas and Rev. Haydock do not even address the question in their commentaries.  Rev. Cornelius a Lapide in his great Commentary specifically addresses this question and says that the "never-failing faith" was a personal grace granted to St. Peter alone.  The promise to his successors was that they would never engage the Church's attribute of infallibility to teach error.  Pope Honorius was declared a heretic by at the Sixth Ecuмenical Council that was approved by the Pope Leo II. It matters not whether his heresy was formal or only material except to Honorius himself.  If the pope is taken as the rule of faith, then he must be preserved from even material heresy because for the faithful following his example it would make no difference.
     
    Furthermore, there is not logical contradiction between Infallibility and a pope being a heretic and more than the heretic, Caiaphas being the high priest, who was a Sadducee and denied the doctrine of the resurrection, prophesized being the High Priest, that Christ should die for the nation. Even Balaam's Ass can be used by God to teach the truth.  
    St. Thomas' denying the Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with this argument. St. Robert Bellarmine may or may be correct that a pope has never fallen into formal heresy but the point is moot. Again, it makes no difference whatsoever, except to the pope himself, whether or not the heresy is formal or merely material...


    And you replied:

    Quote
    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/the-heretical-pope-fallacy/msg587166/#msg587166
    This is a good point, Mr. Drew. Whether the heresy is material or formal, is completely irrelevant as the effect would be the same.

    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 11816
    • Reputation: +7392/-2170
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #655 on: April 18, 2018, 11:36:26 AM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Indeed...  Once again we see that Pax is making things up to suit his agenda. 
    First off, I don't care if he was a heretic or not.  I'm not the one who thinks papal heresy affects his chair (unless the Church deposes him).  It is irrelevant to my "agenda" whether Honorius believed the heresy, or simply kept quiet.

    Secondly, there are 9 ways to be an accessory to someone else's sin - silence being one of them.  And since the pope has the SUPREME duty to condemn error, and Honorious did not, then it's logical to say that his silence accepted the heresy, in some degree - and the pope to a higher degree is guilty, since his duty is greater.  As St Thomas Moore, a lawyer, always said of the law:  "Silence gives consent".  Thus, it is just that Honorius is connected to heresy and rightly condemned.

    But really, it doesn't matter if he was a heretic officially.  He's not one in the same manner as the V2 popes, but you're the one who thinks this matters, not I.
    Quote
    Also, I notice another contradiction in your position. Whereas you reject Vatican II Council and the conciliar Popes on the basis of not having defined any "dogmas" or ex-cathedra statements; you are rather quick to condemn Pope Honorius of formal heresy when it is obvious that he did not engage the infallible Magisterium, defined any doctrine, or pronounce an ex-cathedra statement. 
    In conclusion, Cantarella, your above statement then is retarded.  You're saying that Drew has a contradiction because he treats V2 popes the same as Honorius.  I explained that the treatment being the same is not a contradiction.  Then you said the situations AREN'T the same, and my explanation is wrong.  Well...YOU'RE THE ONE WHO SAID THEY SHOULD BE TREATED THE SAME IN THE FIRST PLACE.

    You even contradict yourself in a matter of posts.  Amazing.


    Online forlorn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2476
    • Reputation: +988/-1098
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #656 on: April 18, 2018, 01:07:03 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
  • First off, I don't care if he was a heretic or not.  I'm not the one who thinks papal heresy affects his chair (unless the Church deposes him).  It is irrelevant to my "agenda" whether Honorius believed the heresy, or simply kept quiet.

    Secondly, there are 9 ways to be an accessory to someone else's sin - silence being one of them.  And since the pope has the SUPREME duty to condemn error, and Honorious did not, then it's logical to say that his silence accepted the heresy, in some degree - and the pope to a higher degree is guilty, since his duty is greater.  As St Thomas Moore, a lawyer, always said of the law:  "Silence gives consent".  Thus, it is just that Honorius is connected to heresy and rightly condemned.

    But really, it doesn't matter if he was a heretic officially.  He's not one in the same manner as the V2 popes, but you're the one who thinks this matters, not I.In conclusion, Cantarella, your above statement then is retarded.  You're saying that Drew has a contradiction because he treats V2 popes the same as Honorius.  I explained that the treatment being the same is not a contradiction.  Then you said the situations AREN'T the same, and my explanation is wrong.  Well...YOU'RE THE ONE WHO SAID THEY SHOULD BE TREATED THE SAME IN THE FIRST PLACE.

    You even contradict yourself in a matter of posts.  Amazing.
    The Church cannot depose a Pope. All it can do is recognise the seat as having been vacant. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 11816
    • Reputation: +7392/-2170
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #657 on: April 18, 2018, 01:55:58 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Universal Discipline
    The current magisterium can never have a universal discipline, because universal refers to all magisteriums, ever, in the history of the Church.  Universal refers to time; it does not refer to 'the present church'.  Something is only universal if it has ALWAYS been taught, everywhere, and by all.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 11816
    • Reputation: +7392/-2170
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #658 on: April 18, 2018, 01:58:02 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    The Church cannot depose a Pope. All it can do is recognise the seat as having been vacant. 
    That's debatable.  There's no clear teaching on the matter, unless you are a 'sola bellarmina' (i.e. you only follow St Bellarmine, and reject the 100s of other theologians.)

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 11816
    • Reputation: +7392/-2170
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #659 on: April 18, 2018, 02:00:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Yep.  He's been exposed for this about 4 or 5 times now.
    Oh, please.  Either Honorius was a heretic, or he just supported heresy by being silent.  Potato, potatoe.