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Author Topic: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP  (Read 5389 times)

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Offline BrJoseph

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Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
« on: January 24, 2020, 04:40:45 PM »
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  • Fr. Gregory Hesse, S.T.D., J.C.D., S.T.L., J.C.L., Canon Lawyer, Doctor of Thomistic Theology, lifelong friend and personal secretary of Cardinal Stickler at the Vatican from 1986-1988 has provided us with many talks and conferences where he gives a no-nonsense, intelligent, learned, and witty exposition and explanation of relevant topics facing contemporary faithful Catholics. Fr. Hesse got to know approximately 45 cardinals while studying and working in Rome for 15 years and he has an uncanny and substantial knowledge of many things. You would be hard-pressed to find another theologian quite like him.

    Canon Hesse was related to the Hapsburg royal bloodline. He was born in Vienna in 1952, ordained by Cardinal Marella in St. Peter's Basilica on November 21, 1981, and earned doctorates in Canon Law and Theology from the Pontifical University of Saint Thomas Aquinas (Angelicuм) in Rome. He worked as a personal secretary of Cardinal Stickler at the Vatican from 1986 to 1988. He passed away on January 25, 2006. A breath of fresh air in today’s widespread climate of many weak, ignorant, and naive clerics and theologians, he was affectionately called by several of his friends during his life “the bull in the china shop.” His example, testimony, and insights no doubt played and will play an important role in Catholic thought and development. 

    For those of you who are new to Tradition, talks given by Fr Hess can be found at:
    https://spideroak.com/browse/share/Hesse/MP3-Remastered/Fr.%20Gregory%20Hesse%20Audio%20Files%20%28Remastered%29/


    Father also had a great sense of humour and often quoted the two poems below:
     
     
    Heretics All by Hilaire Belloc
     
    Heretics all, whoever you may be,
    In Tarbes or Nimes, or over the sea,
    You never shall have good words from me.
    Caritas non conturbat me.
     
    But Catholic men that live upon wine
    Are deep in the water, and frank, and fine;
    Wherever I travel I find it so,
    Benedicamus Domino.
     
    On childing women that are forelorn,
    And men that sweat in nothing but scorn:
    That is on all that ever were born,
    Miserere Domine.
     
    To my poor self on my deathbed,
    And all my dear companions dead,
    Because of the love that I bore them,
    Dona Eis Requiem.
    Hilaire Belloc
     
     

    The Song of Right and Wrong by G.K. Chesterton
     
    Feast on wine or fast on water
    And your honour shall stand sure,
    God Almighty’s son and daughter
    He the valiant, she the pure;
    If an angel out of heaven
    Brings you other things to drink,
    Thank him for his kind attentions,
    Go and pour them down the sink.
     
    Tea is like the East he grows in,
    A great yellow Mandarin
    With urbanity of manner
    And unconsciousness of sin;
    All the women, like a harem,
    At his pig-tail troop along;
    And, like all the East he grows in,
    He is Poison when he’s strong.
     
    Tea, although an Oriental,
    Is a gentleman at least;
    Cocoa is a cad and coward,
    Cocoa is a vulgar beast,
    Cocoa is a dull, disloyal,
    Lying, crawling cad and clown,
    And may very well be grateful
    To the fool that takes him down.
     
    As for all the windy waters,
    They were rained like tempests down
    When good drink had been dishonoured
    By the tipplers of the town;
    When red wine had brought red ruin
    And the death-dance of our times,
    Heaven sent us Soda Water
    As a torment for our crimes.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
    « Reply #1 on: January 24, 2020, 04:46:24 PM »
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  • With all his genius, it's too bad he didn't know enough to get conditionally ordained.


    Offline Raphaela

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    Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
    « Reply #2 on: January 24, 2020, 08:01:33 PM »
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  • He discusses the reasons for this in some of his talks. He was ordained in the new rite in Latin and was convinced of its validity, at least in Latin. He knew personally the Cardinal who ordained him and was satisfied as to the orthodoxy of his beliefs. So under these circuмstances it would have been sacrilegious to repeat the ceremony, even conditionally.
    Incidentally, he was never a Canon (or even a Monsignor). The purple trim on his cassock and biretta were a personal revival of a privilege granted by Pope Urban VIII to priests ordained in St Peter’s in Rome, though long fallen into disuse. Also explained in one of his talks.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
    « Reply #3 on: January 24, 2020, 09:36:06 PM »
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  • With all his genius, it's too bad he didn't know enough to get conditionally ordained.
    Unless Fr. Hesse is dishonest (and I see no reason to think he is, and you don't either), he's said that Archbishop Lefebvre, Bishop Fellay, *and* Bishop Williamson all said that his ordination was valid and he didn't need conditional ordination.  I get that sedes would categorically disagree with this outright, and usually would out and out say the new rite is invalid (though I realize you'd more say it was doubtful than straight up invalid I think.)  

    Honestly, after seeing your comment here, and pondering it, I'm wondering if perhaps the gap between sedes and other trads may be even bigger than previously thought.  

    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
    « Reply #4 on: January 24, 2020, 09:43:45 PM »
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  • With all his genius, it's too bad he didn't know enough to get conditionally ordained.
    The reason he gave for the validity of the new rite was absolutely absurd. He said that since it was a “schismatic rite” Pius XII declaration on the form and matter was only for the latin rite. A lot of people will reply to yiur OP saying “ he was convinced of its validity” but Hesse knew others weren’t so why not just get conditionally ordained just Incase the original was invalid. 
    Pope St. Pius X pray for us


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
    « Reply #5 on: January 24, 2020, 10:19:00 PM »
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  • The reason he gave for the validity of the new rite was absolutely absurd. He said that since it was a “schismatic rite” Pius XII declaration on the form and matter was only for the latin rite. A lot of people will reply to yiur OP saying “ he was convinced of its validity” but Hesse knew others weren’t so why not just get conditionally ordained just Incase the original was invalid.
    I guess i don't see how we can ask this without also asking why Lefebvre and the SSPX bishops he consecrated didn't insist that he do so.  It seems like if  they had asked him to, he would have done it.

    To be clear I'm not saying they shouldn't have, just that this seems like a case where the "blame" isn't being appropriately assigned if this is indeed what he ought to have done.

    Offline poche

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    Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
    « Reply #6 on: January 25, 2020, 03:05:11 AM »
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  • May his soul and the souls of all the faithful departed rest in peace. Amen.
    :pray: :pray: :pray:

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
    « Reply #7 on: January 25, 2020, 05:29:32 AM »
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  • He discusses the reasons for this in some of his talks. He was ordained in the new rite in Latin and was convinced of its validity, at least in Latin. He knew personally the Cardinal who ordained him and was satisfied as to the orthodoxy of his beliefs. So under these circuмstances it would have been sacrilegious to repeat the ceremony, even conditionally.
    Well said! Although he did not believe he needed to look into it, he did look into it and could not prove his own ordination was doubtful or invalid, nor could +ABL and the others as Byz states below.

    Unless Fr. Hesse is dishonest (and I see no reason to think he is, and you don't either), he's said that Archbishop Lefebvre, Bishop Fellay, *and* Bishop Williamson all said that his ordination was valid and he didn't need conditional ordination.  I get that sedes would categorically disagree with this outright, and usually would out and out say the new rite is invalid (though I realize you'd more say it was doubtful than straight up invalid I think.)  

    Honestly, after seeing your comment here, and pondering it, I'm wondering if perhaps the gap between sedes and other trads may be even bigger than previously thought.  
    The gap here is that the Catholic Church initially always presumes validity unless proven otherwise, whereas the sedes always presume invalidity.  

    In one of his talks, he talked about his ordination, saying:

    "...I have been ordained, unfortunately in the new rite of ordination, but thank God in Latin, everything strictly by the book and +ABL said that would be valid, +Fellay said it's valid and Fr. Franz Schmidberger who is my present superior in Austria says it's valid and +Williamson said there's no need for conditional ordination..."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
    « Reply #8 on: January 25, 2020, 06:10:31 AM »
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  • Wrt his ordination, the biggest thing he had going for him was the fact that he was ordained by a bishop who was consecrated in the Old Rite.  

    Offline donkath

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    Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
    « Reply #9 on: January 25, 2020, 06:27:05 AM »
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  • Quote
    "...I have been ordained, unfortunately in the new rite of ordination, but thank God in Latin, everything strictly by the book and +ABL said that would be valid, +Fellay said it's valid and Fr. Franz Schmidberger who is my present superior in Austria says it's valid and +Williamson said there's no need for conditional ordination..."



    Yes, and one of the two videos where he says this has been removed





    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
    « Reply #10 on: January 25, 2020, 06:46:44 AM »
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  • With all his genius, it's too bad he didn't know enough to get conditionally ordained.
    This coming from a man who has no problem with the Thuc line
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
    « Reply #11 on: January 25, 2020, 09:19:56 AM »
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  • This coming from a man who has no problem with the Thuc line

    True. Laudislaus also has no problem with lying when it comes to what +ABL stood for. If he can re-invent the late Archbishop in the minds of trads here, then he will have, in part, fulfilled his mission here.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
    « Reply #12 on: January 25, 2020, 09:43:37 AM »
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  • This coming from a man who has no problem with the Thuc line

    ^^^ worthless ad hominem

    Correct.  Thuc line bishops and priests were ordained with the Traditional Rite that is know to be valid, whereas the Novus Ordo Rite of Ordination is doubtful.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
    « Reply #13 on: January 25, 2020, 09:44:56 AM »
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  • True. Laudislaus also has no problem with lying when it comes to what +ABL stood for. If he can re-invent the late Archbishop in the minds of trads here, then he will have, in part, fulfilled his mission here.

    ^^^ worthless ad hominem

    Yes, I "lie" about Archbishop Lefebvre being, for the most part, tolerant of sedevacantism, after having produced pages of quotes saying exactly that.

    You're the liar, Meg, and it's getting pathetic.  You pretend in your cognitive dissonance that Archbishop Lefebvre categorically condemned sedevacantism during the entire time he was active as a Traditional bishop ... when the black-and-white evidence says the contrary.  His position can be summed up in his own words, "I do not say that the pope is not the pope; but I do not say that you cannot say that the pope is not the pope."  There was a brief period of time (1982-1983) where he backed away from this and did condemn sedevacantism, but during most of his active years he was quite tolerant of it.  By around 1985-6 (with Assisi looming) he said that Assisi might inspire him to become sedevacantist as well.  This, which you call a lie, simply because you don't like it, is well-docuмented FACT.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
    « Reply #14 on: January 25, 2020, 09:54:56 AM »
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  • Honestly its hard to box him into modern day categories.  Most people who today would seriously entertain doubt that the see is occupied would also have demanded someone like Fr. Hesse get a conditional ordination.

    Maybe Lefebvre was just highly moved by "big picture" issues like assisi, but less by technicalities?

    Just kinda wondering.