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Author Topic: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism  (Read 19010 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2024, 06:14:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on June 22, 2024, 12:49:14 PM
    This is top notch!!! R&Rers you better start listening to this man. I’m just waiting for him to openly reject Montini onward. I give him leeway, or any one else for that matter, to be iffy on Roncalli, even though I reject him.
    Outside of his position on Bergoglio, I think he still speaks like R&R.  
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    Revenge not yourselves, my dearly beloved; but give place unto wrath, for it is written: Revenge is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord. (Romans 12:19)

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism
    « Reply #31 on: June 23, 2024, 06:18:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on June 23, 2024, 06:14:39 AM
    Outside of his position on Bergoglio, I think he still speaks like R&R. 
    In what way? 
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism
    « Reply #32 on: June 23, 2024, 06:49:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on June 23, 2024, 06:18:22 AM
    In what way?
    My general sense is that he is against Vatican II like R&R.  He speaks of a conciliar church vs a Catholic Church like R&R.  And he also compares his thoughts, etc. to that of Archbishop Lefebvre.  Again, if he didn't imply that he thinks Bergoglio is a false pope, I don't see the difference.  And yet I wouldn't call him a Bennyvacantist because I think he is harsher on Vatican II than they are.
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    Revenge not yourselves, my dearly beloved; but give place unto wrath, for it is written: Revenge is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord. (Romans 12:19)

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism
    « Reply #33 on: June 23, 2024, 07:14:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on June 22, 2024, 08:14:24 PM
    So saith one of our sedevacantist overlords here. You have no jurisdiction over me. YOU do not get to tell me what to believe or what I must do.

    Do you miss the "IF" part of my statement?
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism
    « Reply #34 on: June 23, 2024, 07:44:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on June 23, 2024, 06:49:36 AM
    My general sense is that he is against Vatican II like R&R.  He speaks of a conciliar church vs a Catholic Church like R&R.  And he also compares his thoughts, etc. to that of Archbishop Lefebvre.  Again, if he didn't imply that he thinks Bergoglio is a false pope, I don't see the difference.  And yet I wouldn't call him a Bennyvacantist because I think he is harsher on Vatican II than they are.

    It seems to me that he’s on his way, if he already hasn’t gotten there, to rejecting the nopes after Pope Pius XII. His denouncing of ecuмenism, VII, and his calling it an “honor” to be excommunicated by Bergoglio is a big plus in my estimation. I’m 95% on board right now, he’s looking good.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism
    « Reply #35 on: June 23, 2024, 07:50:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on June 23, 2024, 07:44:43 AM
    It seems to me that he’s on his way, if he already hasn’t gotten there, to rejecting the nopes after Pope Pius XII. His denouncing of ecuмenism, VII, and his calling it an “honor” to be excommunicated by Bergoglio is a big plus in my estimation. I’m 95% on board right now, he’s looking good.

    I hope, instead, that Archbishop Vigano publicly states that only Jorge Bergoglio is not a true pope.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism
    « Reply #36 on: June 23, 2024, 09:42:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on June 23, 2024, 03:01:20 AM
    There are two hyperbolic sayings (questions) which demonstrate the problem with your position. 1) Are you more Catholic than the pope? 2) Is the pope Catholic?

    Both of these “questions” have the same connotation as saying: “is grass green?” and “is water wet?”

    A person who holds the sedevacantist position can still avail himself to the use of those two rhetorical questions.

    Your bizarre notion about Catholicism turns those questions on their head because you truly believe that you are, in fact, more Catholic than the pope. An honest person will see the inherent problem with this.

    The entire issue of being "more catholic than the Pope," is a doctrine of the sedevacantist religion, and just one of the many accusations that adherents of the sedevacantist religion lobby against non-sedevacantists, as if we do not have the right to question the words and actions of a Pope. The Pope is not God, though many sedevacantists believe that he is. That's another false doctrine of the sedevacantists - that the Pope is God, and therefore cannot do anything against the Catholic Faith, because God would not do anything against the Catholic Faith.

    In fact, the Pope is mentioned far more often than Our Lord Jesus Christ, by the sedevacantists. Is the Pope more important, do you believe, than Jesus Christ? Are you aware that Jesus Christ is the actual head of the Catholic Church?

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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Gunter

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    Re: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism
    « Reply #37 on: June 23, 2024, 10:04:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on June 23, 2024, 09:42:20 AM
    The entire issue of being "more catholic than the Pope," is a doctrine of the sedevacantist religion, and just one of the many accusations that adherents of the sedevacantist religion lobby against non-sedevacantists, as if we do not have the right to question the words and actions of a Pope. The Pope is not God, though many sedevacantists believe that he is. That's another false doctrine of the sedevacantists - that the Pope is God, and therefore cannot do anything against the Catholic Faith, because God would not do anything against the Catholic Faith.

    In fact, the Pope is mentioned far more often than Our Lord Jesus Christ, by the sedevacantists. Is the Pope more important, do you believe, than Jesus Christ? Are you aware that Jesus Christ is the actual head of the Catholic Church?
    Do you believe that the condemnation of any historical fill in the blank heretic by faithful Catholic clergy at the time of their crimes should have only been theoretical and not actual? 
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism
    « Reply #38 on: June 23, 2024, 10:04:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on June 23, 2024, 09:42:20 AM
    The entire issue of being "more catholic than the Pope," is a doctrine of the sedevacantist religion, and just one of the many accusations that adherents of the sedevacantist religion lobby against non-sedevacantists, as if we do not have the right to question the words and actions of a Pope. The Pope is not God, though many sedevacantists believe that he is. That's another false doctrine of the sedevacantists - that the Pope is God, and therefore cannot do anything against the Catholic Faith, because God would not do anything against the Catholic Faith.

    In fact, the Pope is mentioned far more often than Our Lord Jesus Christ, by the sedevacantists. Is the Pope more important, do you believe, than Jesus Christ? Are you aware that Jesus Christ is the actual head of the Catholic Church?
    I'm all out of upthumbs for you Meg, but you keep hitting the nail squarely on the head! Thank you! Good posts!

    In all of Church history, I do not believe the obsession with the status of popes has ever been more prevalent than it is these days among many of the the sedes, at least here. 

    Perhaps if the sedes ever accept the fact that the whole idea of sedeism is nothing more than just their own non-binding and could well be wrong opinion, this obsession might fade completely away, along with the disunity that is inherent within it.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Gunter

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    Re: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism
    « Reply #39 on: June 23, 2024, 10:09:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on June 23, 2024, 09:42:20 AM
    The entire issue of being "more catholic than the Pope," is a doctrine of the sedevacantist religion, and just one of the many accusations that adherents of the sedevacantist religion lobby against non-sedevacantists, as if we do not have the right to question the words and actions of a Pope. The Pope is not God, though many sedevacantists believe that he is. That's another false doctrine of the sedevacantists - that the Pope is God, and therefore cannot do anything against the Catholic Faith, because God would not do anything against the Catholic Faith.

    In fact, the Pope is mentioned far more often than Our Lord Jesus Christ, by the sedevacantists. Is the Pope more important, do you believe, than Jesus Christ? Are you aware that Jesus Christ is the actual head of the Catholic Church?
    Meg perfectly describes an anti christ. Therfore anyone with the ability to influence others wrongly should be resisted in fact.
    A pilot that merely successfully lands his plane every time may not necessarily be a good pilot.  But, one who intentionally flies his plane into a building and kills everyone is considered a murderer.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism
    « Reply #40 on: June 23, 2024, 10:18:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on June 23, 2024, 10:04:56 AM
    I'm all out of upthumbs for you Meg, but you keep hitting the nail squarely on the head! Thank you! Good posts!

    In all of Church history, I do not believe the obsession with the status of popes has ever been more prevalent than it is these days among many of the the sedes, at least here.

    Perhaps if the sedes ever accept the fact that the whole idea of sedeism is nothing more than just their own non-binding and could well be wrong opinion, this obsession might fade completely away, along with the disunity that is inherent within it.

    Thanks, stubborn. It's good to know that I'm not the only one here who is defending the right to not be a sedevacantist.

    As you say, perhaps the disunity inherent in sedevacantism would fade away if they only realized that their opinions are non-binding (for anyone). IMO, an idol has been made of the Pope, and once that happens, it's difficult to get away from it. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism
    « Reply #41 on: June 23, 2024, 11:27:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on June 22, 2024, 07:22:14 PM
    Of course the lines between laity and clergy are blurred, in that now we, the laity, become the arbitors of all that is truly Catholic. 
    How about the lines between the laity and the Pope? How about the clergy and the Pope?

    The absolute irony of you propping up the authority of jurisdictionless priests as if it's somehow relevant while AT THE SAME TIME you REJECT the authority of THE POPE. Insane.

    It's really a masterclass in deceit where you present us as disrespecting the traditional order (putting ourselves above the clergy, only the clergy you like of course) while you wholesale reject the traditional order of authority.

    Truly incredible how you don't see the contradiction.
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    Offline Mr G

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    Re: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism
    « Reply #42 on: June 23, 2024, 12:00:32 PM »
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    • In Defense of Archbishop Viganó – Padre Peregrino

    Last week, Archbishop Viganó wrote this on his site:

    “The Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith has informed me, with a simple email, of the initiation of an extrajudicial penal trial against me, with the accusation of having committed the crime of schism and charging me of having denied the legitimacy of ‘Pope Francis’ of having broken communion ‘with Him’ and of having rejected the Second Vatican Council. I have been summoned to the Palace of the Holy Office on June 20, in person or represented by a canon lawyer. I assume that the sentence has already been prepared, given that it is an extrajudicial process.  I regard the accusations against me as an honor. I believe that the very wording of the charges confirms the theses that I have repeatedly defended in my various addresses. It is no coincidence that the accusation against me concerns the questioning of the legitimacy of Jorge Mario Bergoglio and the rejection of Vatican II: the Council represents the ideological, theological, moral, and liturgical cancer of which the Bergoglian ‘synodal church’ is the necessary metastasis.”

    This event will certainly go down in world history.  Furthermore, I’m sure Church history will side with Archbishop Viganó.  I would like to defend him on a hundred issues right now, but I am going to limit my defense of him to one specific criticism:  Some traditional priests (the very ones who should be defending him) tend to say:  “Archbishop Viganó is just a johnny-come-lately to tradition.”  Instead of welcoming him to the traditional sacraments and the battle against the modernists, some traditional priests sideline him.  But it’s a silly criticism they launch, as Archbishop Viganó already admitted he was late to the party:

    “To bear witness to corruption in the hierarchy of the Catholic Church was a painful decision for me, and remains so. But I am an old man, one who knows he must soon give an accounting to the Judge for his actions and omissions, one who fears Him who can cast body and soul into hell. A Judge who, even in his infinite mercy, will render to every person salvation or damnation according to what he has deserved. Anticipating the dreadful question from that Judge — ‘How could you, who had knowledge of the truth, keep silent in the midst of falsehood and depravity?’ — what answer could I give?”

    Saul of Tarsus was once asked by Our Lord not only why he was persecuting His Church, but rather why Saul was persecuting Christ Himself in persecuting His Church:  And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.”—Acts 9:4-6.  So also, Viganó recognized (however late in life) that Christ was being re-crucified by modernists in the current Church crisis:  “I do not say it will be easy to decide between silence and speaking. I urge you to consider which choice– on your deathbed, and then before the just Judge — you will not regret having made.”—Archbishop Viganó.

    Saul of Tarsus became St. Paul, but he kept it ever before him that he once persecuted Christians:  I thank Him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because He judged me faithful, appointing me to His service, though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.—1 Tim 1:12-14.  St. Paul also realized the Jєωιѕн hierarchy of his day (of whom he used to be a great leader) was deceiving new Christians to divert from the truth of the Gospel: O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?—Gal 1:1-3.

    So also, our former Apostolic Nuncio to the USA, once himself caught up in the legalism of canon law and the good-ole-boys club of the bishops and Cardinals, has now turned to the ancient and unchanging Gospel to save his soul.  While St. Paul learned he had to resist the hierarchy of the old religion (promoting the errors of believing Christ did not fulfill the Old Testament) so now we see Viganó resist the heretical hierarchy of the new religion—that sect which he calls the “counterfeit Church” promoting “the so-called ‘post-conciliar magisterium,’ in particular in matters of collegiality, ecuмenism, religious freedom, the secularity of the State, and the liturgy.”  Both St. Paul and Archbishop Viganó ultimately had to come to the same conclusion: Jesus Christ is the same: Yesterday and today and forever.—Heb 13:8. (Iesus Christus heri et hodie, ipse et in saecula.)


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    Offline Meg

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    Re: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism
    « Reply #43 on: June 23, 2024, 12:18:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on June 23, 2024, 11:27:55 AM
    How about the lines between the laity and the Pope? How about the clergy and the Pope?

    The absolute irony of you propping up the authority of jurisdictionless priests as if it's somehow relevant while AT THE SAME TIME you REJECT the authority of THE POPE. Insane.

    It's really a masterclass in deceit where you present us as disrespecting the traditional order (putting ourselves above the clergy, only the clergy you like of course) while you wholesale reject the traditional order of authority.

    Truly incredible how you don't see the contradiction.

    You say that it is a masterclass of deceit that I present you as disrespecting the traditional order, while I reject the traditional order.

    But.....Sedevacantist doctrine is not part of the traditional order. It never has been. Sedevacantist doctrine is a novelty, and therefore not binding on anyone.

    You set yourself up as a priest or bishop would - as the final arbiter of what is Catholic, and you believe your pronouncements as binding on all who hear or read them. Since when is it "traditional" for a layman to bind anyone? Well, in the Church of Vatican ll, the layman is God, and it is laymen who will save us. Our Lord only has a secondary role in our salvation, in the Church of Vatican ll. You have that in common with the Modernists.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism
    « Reply #44 on: June 23, 2024, 12:20:01 PM »
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    • Bergolio is in schism.  He never ever corrects priests who rape and molest little children, nuns and other young Virgins. 

    Bergolio the one in schism.  He is a 
    An old communist bar fly who works for United Nations satan. 
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