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Author Topic: Voting and Catholic Morality, Fr Peter Scott, 2007  (Read 1248 times)

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Offline Plenus Venter

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Voting and Catholic Morality, Fr Peter Scott, 2007
« on: Yesterday at 06:52:52 PM »
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  • The Angelus  February 2007
     
    Questions and Answers
    Fr. Peter R. Scott

    Is it morally obligatory to vote?

    It is certainly true that the modernists consider democracy, and the right to vote, as sacrosanct, an immediate consequence of human dignity, directly connected with their humanistic religion.

    Reacting against this, knowing as we do how much the electoral system is unjust, realizing how much modern democracy is based upon the false liberal principle of human freedom, escaping from all objective divine and moral law as it does, aware of how little real choice there is between the candidates, as also of how false is the impression that one man's vote is really going to make a difference to such a secular, ungodly system–we might easily conclude that there is no obligation to vote at all.

    Yet the Church's teaching on the subject is not anything new. Without approving the modern system of democracy and its false principle of the sovereignty of the people, the Church nevertheless binds us to contribute towards the common good of society, by an obligation of legal justice. This principle is expressed well by Pope Pius XII in his April 20, 1946, discourse to Italian Catholic Action:
    The people is called on to take an always larger part in the public life of the nation. This participation brings with it grave responsibilities. Hence the necessity for the faithful to have clear, solid, precise knowledge of their duties in the moral and religious domain with respect to their exercise of their civil rights, and in particular of the right to vote.

    In fact, Pope Pius XII had clearly explained that it is precisely on account of the anti-Catholic and secular spirit that surrounds Catholics that they have the duty to defend the Church by the correct exercise of their right to vote. It is to prevent a greater evil. He had stated on March 16, 1946, to the parish priests of Rome:
    The exercise of the right to vote is an act of grave moral responsibility, at least with respect to the electing of those who are called to give to a country its constitution and its laws, and in particular those that affect the sanctification of holy days of obligation, marriage, the family, schools and the just and equitable regulation of many social questions. It is the Church's duty to explain to the faithful the moral duties that flow from this electoral right.

    Pope Pius XII was even more explicit two years later, again when speaking to the parish priests of Rome. He explained that in the precise circuмstances of the time it was an obligation under pain of mortal sin for all the faithful to use their vote, and this even for women. Although it is certainly true that in the traditional conception of democracy it is only the heads of families who vote, it is perfectly permissible for women to use the right of vote when it is granted, and in fact it becomes an obligation to do so when the common good depends upon all Catholics using their vote correctly. Here is the text of March 10, 1948:
    In the present circuмstances, it is a strict obligation for all those who have the right to vote, men and women, to take part in the elections. Whoever abstains from doing so, in particular by indolence or weakness, commits a sin grave in itself, a mortal fault. Each one must follow the dictate of his own conscience. However, it is obvious that the voice of conscience imposes on every Catholic to give his vote to the candidates who offer truly sufficient guarantees for the protection of the rights of God and of souls, for the true good of individuals, families and of society, according to the love of God and Catholic moral teaching.

    This application of the Church's social teaching to the particular situation of the time is in accord with the teaching of the moral theologians, who speak of the grave sin of omission for those who simply neglect to elect good, Catholic representatives, and of the duty of doing all in our power of encouraging suitable laymen to work towards using the electoral system to obtain worthy lawmakers.

    However, how far removed we are from this situation! Clearly, we are no longer in the circuмstance of having to change between Catholic and non-Catholic, morally upright and liberal representatives. All the alternatives are liberal, the deception and the manipulation of the public by the media is rampant. In practice, it generally comes down to the question of whether or not it is permissible to vote for an unworthy candidate (e.g., a candidate who only approves abortion in cases of rape or incest), for he would at least (we suppose) be the lesser evil. In such a case, there can be no obligation to vote, for all the reasons that could oblige, mentioned by Pope Pius XII, no longer apply. Nevertheless, it is still permissible to vote in such a case, provided that one can be sure that there truly is a lesser evil, and that there is a grave reason to do so (e.g., to avoid abortion on demand, or promotion of unnatural methods of birth control), and one has the good intention of providing for the good of society as best one can. This is called material cooperation. However, it can never be obligatory.

    Consequently, in the rare case that there is a clearly, publicly Catholic candidate who supports the teaching of the Church, there is a strict moral obligation to vote, under pain of mortal sin. Where there is a clear gain possible from the correct use of a vote for some other candidate, it can be recommended or counseled. However, when there is no clear advantage it would be better to abstain, so as not to contribute even to a material participation.



    Offline Michelle

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    Re: Voting and Catholic Morality, Fr Peter Scott, 2007
    « Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 07:18:05 PM »
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  • Exactly!  And this was written before Trump was president the first time.  Where during his presidency he acted against Catholic moral teaching and pushed his agenda to decrimilize sodomy on a global level.  And now that he is running again we know his support of Israel and their genocide of the Palestinians.  He also approves the IVF and all the death it involves.  


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Voting and Catholic Morality, Fr Peter Scott, 2007
    « Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 07:59:14 PM »
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  • But Kamala tho...

    Fact is, we're getting Trump or Kamala, so you better decide which one you want to see president.
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    Online St Giles

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    Re: Voting and Catholic Morality, Fr Peter Scott, 2007
    « Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 08:05:38 PM »
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  • Wasn't there a time when Catholics were being persecuted, and just when it couldn't get worse, a worse emperor rose to power, resulting in such persecution of Christians that the Christian heretics were wiped out leaving the Catholics behind? Could you imagine if Kamala gets elected and somehow a greater good comes out of her great evil?
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Voting and Catholic Morality, Fr Peter Scott, 2007
    « Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 08:19:54 PM »
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  • But Kamala tho...

    Fact is, we're getting Trump or Kamala, so you better decide which one you want to see president.

    I choose neither.

    Of course, even if I vote, I still choose neither, since the winner has already been selected.

    This moral decision is analogous to the following situation.  Some evil mastermind takes you captive, hands you a gun, and tells you that you must shoot either one or another of two innocent individuals ... or else he's going to kill both of them.  Utilitarian thinking, such as you're articulating above, would make it licit for you to kill one of them, and in fact might imply an obligation to kill one of them.  But CATHOLIC thinking would require that you not kill either one, leaving the consequences to God, since the end doesn't justify the means and you cannot commit an evil even to prevent a greater evil.

    That's really the debate here, this utilitarian thinking rooted in moral relativism or the quintessentially Catholic principles regarding end does not justify the means.  Alas, the Trad clergy are promoting the former here, or at least failing to explain or articulate how it is that they're not promoting the former (even if they have some valid explanation embedded in their own minds).


    Offline Caraffa

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    Re: Voting and Catholic Morality, Fr Peter Scott, 2007
    « Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 08:34:06 PM »
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  • Nowhere does Fr. Scott say it would be a mortal sin to vote; in fact, he says the opposite. There are people here alleging it would be a mortal sin to vote for Trump. Do you also accuse European Trads of the same when they vote for candidates that don’t go all in abortion, because they focus on immigration and other issues?
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    Offline Caraffa

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    Re: Voting and Catholic Morality, Fr Peter Scott, 2007
    « Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 08:39:42 PM »
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  • Wasn't there a time when Catholics were being persecuted, and just when it couldn't get worse, a worse emperor rose to power, resulting in such persecution of Christians that the Christian heretics were wiped out leaving the Catholics behind? Could you imagine if Kamala gets elected and somehow a greater good comes out of her great evil?
    :facepalm:
    You simply don’t understand the modern left or Church history for that matter if you think like this. 200 years from now won’t be one of Christian triumph, but a permanent Haiti.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Voting and Catholic Morality, Fr Peter Scott, 2007
    « Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 08:54:27 PM »
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  • Wasn't there a time when Catholics were being persecuted, and just when it couldn't get worse, a worse emperor rose to power, resulting in such persecution of Christians that the Christian heretics were wiped out leaving the Catholics behind? Could you imagine if Kamala gets elected and somehow a greater good comes out of her great evil?

    Indeed.  We'll never know.  It was the blood of martyrs that turned pagan Rome ultimately into Christendom.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Voting and Catholic Morality, Fr Peter Scott, 2007
    « Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 08:55:08 PM »
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  • :facepalm:
    You simply don’t understand the modern left or Church history for that matter if you think like this. 200 years from now won’t be one of Christian triumph, but a permanent Haiti.

    Do you really think that the Modern Left is in charge rather than God, as St. Giles indicated?  And are you daft enough to believe that the "Modern Right" are not completely controlled also?

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Voting and Catholic Morality, Fr Peter Scott, 2007
    « Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 09:02:19 PM »
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  • Indeed.  We'll never know.  It was the blood of martyrs that turned pagan Rome ultimately into Christendom.

    Traditional Catholics don't have much blood to spare. If several hundred of the best serious Traditional Catholics were turned into such "blood fertilizer", there wouldn't be any Catholics left to rebuild with! Or the survivors/newly converted would all have to rebuild from zero, from rare books, direct inspiration from God (infusion of knowledge/grace) or something. Has God ever done something like that before? Not yet.

    We're already a remnant of a remnant at this point. I don't see how that remnant could be decimated/slaughtered without an immediate subsequent End of the World/Second Coming/General Judgment.
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    Offline Caraffa

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    Re: Voting and Catholic Morality, Fr Peter Scott, 2007
    « Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 09:03:09 PM »
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  • Do you really think that the Modern Left is in charge rather than God, as St. Giles indicated?  And are you daft enough to believe that the "Modern Right" are not completely controlled also?

    “Pray as though everything depends on God, work as though everything depends on you.”

    The modern racist right are not completely controlled because racialism  is a threat to the powers that be. The last several years have already proven that.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Voting and Catholic Morality, Fr Peter Scott, 2007
    « Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 09:06:25 PM »
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  • This moral decision is analogous to the following situation.  Some evil mastermind takes you captive, hands you a gun, and tells you that you must shoot either one or another of two innocent individuals ... or else he's going to kill both of them.  Utilitarian thinking, such as you're articulating above, would make it licit for you to kill one of them, and in fact might imply an obligation to kill one of them.  But CATHOLIC thinking would require that you not kill either one, leaving the consequences to God, since the end doesn't justify the means and you cannot commit an evil even to prevent a greater evil.

    That's really the debate here, this utilitarian thinking rooted in moral relativism or the quintessentially Catholic principles regarding end does not justify the means.  Alas, the Trad clergy are promoting the former here, or at least failing to explain or articulate how it is that they're not promoting the former (even if they have some valid explanation embedded in their own minds).

    That's why I've taken the discussion to the next level. If you're correct, then what? Keeping in mind we're already at the bottom of the toilet, a remnant of a remnant -- what hope is there? How long can this possibly continue without some kind of miraculous intervention?
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    Online St Giles

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    Re: Voting and Catholic Morality, Fr Peter Scott, 2007
    « Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 09:09:55 PM »
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  • Traditional Catholics don't have much blood to spare. If several hundred of the best serious Traditional Catholics were turned into such "blood fertilizer", there wouldn't be any Catholics left to rebuild with! Or the survivors/newly converted would all have to rebuild from zero, from rare books, direct inspiration from God (infusion of knowledge/grace) or something. Has God ever done something like that before? Not yet.

    We're already a remnant of a remnant at this point. I don't see how that remnant could be decimated/slaughtered without an immediate subsequent End of the World/Second Coming/General Judgment.
    That was my concern when reading about so many martyrs including popes and bishops; how can the converts be taught quick enough to replace them?
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Voting and Catholic Morality, Fr Peter Scott, 2007
    « Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 09:12:30 PM »
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  • That's why I've taken the discussion to the next level. If you're correct, then what? Keeping in mind we're already at the bottom of the toilet, a remnant of a remnant -- what hope is there? How long can this possibly continue without some kind of miraculous intervention?

    Not sure.  I imagine the Apostles felt the same way during Our Lord's Passion.  Do you honestly think there's hope if, say, Trump gets elected?  I don't.  I think he's also controlled, and if the select him, they have a reason for it.  Sometimes God does and will put people into situations where there's no natural hope left, leaving us only with the bare, raw supernatural hope to cling to ... analogous to a dark night of the soul, except it's for all of society instead of just an individual.

    Indeed, I see things as finished and hopeless, naturally speaking.  And sometimes it's only then that we realize how much we need God, where we hit rock bottom and can no longer rely upon ourselves but acknowledge our helplessness and seek God's help.

    I think it's getting to the point of being as bad as in the "Days of Noah", and it might be nearing the time when we just have to scamper to the safety of the ark while God cleans up the mess.

    Offline Caraffa

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    Re: Voting and Catholic Morality, Fr Peter Scott, 2007
    « Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 09:27:54 PM »
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  • There are reasons why I warn drawing parallels to early Church for our day. The pagans at the time of the early Church had natural virtue and often did admire the Christians for standing bravely in the Lion’s den. The modern Left wants you dead, your kids raped, infected with AIDS, and they think its funny. 
    Pray for me, always.