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Author Topic: How can God send wicked souls to Hell forever  (Read 2278 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: How can God send wicked souls to Hell forever
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2019, 12:20:08 PM »
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  • Often times an individual will form too strict a position on something, due to sins in his own past. The person carries baggage, and is trying to make up for what he did in the past with extra strictness today.

    Sorry.  I wrote the same thing ... before I had seen this.

    Offline Matto

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    Re: How can God send wicked souls to Hell forever
    « Reply #31 on: May 02, 2019, 12:35:38 PM »
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  • My main objection is the accusations of Jerome being a sɛҳuąƖ pervert and that it was his sɛҳuąƖ perversion that led to his heresy. For all we know Jerome could have led a perfectly chaste life but he just felt too much pity for the souls of the damned and wished that everyone would be saved. Also I don't think the descriptor "Catholic views of sɛҳuąƖity" means much because of varying views. I do not think you are a heretic, Lad, for rejecting NFP, but only pointed out that you (and others) have been accused of that because you reject the teaching in that allocution of Pius XII (and I think this also shows that Catholics can have differing views on sɛҳuąƖity).

    I admit that before I was an observant Catholic I indulged in lust, and yes of course this has a great effect on me. But that was a long time ago and I try to be reasonable and not emotional. Should we reject the writings of Saint Jerome and Saint Augustine because they lived immoral lives before their conversion? Or should we respect their viewpoints because they have experience with sin and overcame it and knew all about its effects on the soul firsthand?

    My views are not near Hietnan, as described by Matthew, but Jerome from my interactions with him on the forums and reading his blog seemed more reasonable and not a pervert. And I like hearing such opposing viewpoints even if they are trolls, and I bet a lot of them are trolls.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: How can God send wicked souls to Hell forever
    « Reply #32 on: May 02, 2019, 12:48:35 PM »
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  • My opinion on NFP is based on reason ... applying the teaching of Pope Pius IX in Casti Conubii.  I apply syllogisms to his teaching.  This has nothing to do with rigorism, which is an emotional attachment to the more strict opinion on everything.  It's related to scruples.

    What the heck are you talking about, claiming that I am a "heretic" for rejecting NFP.  Permissibility of NFP has never been dogmatically declared; all we have is the opining of Pius XII before a group of midwives.

    You admitted that you were not altogether observant of the 6th and 9th commandments in your earlier days, so I submit that your rigorism -- as is often the case -- represents an emotional pendulum shift for you against your prior lifestyle.  Try to take the emotion out of it.
    He meant you are referred to as that by others. He obviously agrees NFP is heretical as a self-described rigorist.

    (EDIT: Woops, didn't notice he had replied)

    @Matto: The Bible explicitly says in numerous places that you are allowed to enjoy the body of your wife. The puritans ideas that it has to be pitch black and you have to pray not to enjoy it are ridiculous in light of that. It's Gnostic rejection of the body as evil. Pleasure in marital relations is a reward for the procreative act. As long as relations are always open to procreation(and always with your wife ofc) you're in the clear.

    Offline Matto

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    Re: How can God send wicked souls to Hell forever
    « Reply #33 on: May 02, 2019, 12:59:55 PM »
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  • He meant you are referred to as that by others. He obviously agrees NFP is heretical as a self-described rigorist.
    My views are not out in the open and I don't like talking about the details. I have some strange views. I will not say that NFP is heretical, but I totally understand that view. Certain things make me uneasy, though.

    This is a protestant article, but in it I think are some interesting ideas:

    http://www.joeledmundanderson.com/augustine-and-the-doctrine-of-original-sin-background-about-the-ultimate-std/ 
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: How can God send wicked souls to Hell forever
    « Reply #34 on: May 02, 2019, 01:03:30 PM »
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  • My views are not out in the open and I don't like talking about the details. I have some strange views. I will not say that NFP is heretical, but I totally understand that view. Certain things make me uneasy, though.

    That's where it's important to USE LOGIC.  Don't let a feeling of "uneasiness" inform your theology.  What are the principles involved?  Use that to determine whether something is right or wrong.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: How can God send wicked souls to Hell forever
    « Reply #35 on: May 02, 2019, 01:09:35 PM »
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  • There are varying false premises behind the rigorism --

    -- Pleasure is evil (false) ->Puritanism/Manicheism/rigorism

    -- ONLY the primary end of marriage (or ONLY the primary and secondary ends of marriage) are licit for relations (pleasure is not one of these).  This is different from the first one because it doesn't say pleasure is evil, just that it's not allowed when it comes to the activities ordered toward procreation

    BOTH THESE ARE FALSE

    Now, it's certainly easy for us, laboring under Original Sin, to have varying degrees of disorder, where the pleasure takes on more of a role than it should/would in our unfallen state, and one might argue that this disorder constitutes anywhere from a mere imperfection to venial sin, but there is not mortal sin unless the primary/secondary ends are excluded deliberately.  Even if one doesn't intellectually consider them at all during the relations, as long as one has a persistent VIRTUAL intention, there's no grave sin.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: How can God send wicked souls to Hell forever
    « Reply #36 on: May 02, 2019, 02:37:58 PM »
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  • Well said, Ladislaus.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: How can God send wicked souls to Hell forever
    « Reply #37 on: May 02, 2019, 03:58:52 PM »
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  • Sounds like pseudo Divine mercy of Vatican II.  Anything to maintain their mortal sins.
    Yes, that boils it down to exactly what it is all about, Anything to maintain their mortal sins.

    Nothing else need be said.