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Author Topic: Saint Alphonsus Liguori: “No Sin Justifies Any End, Not Even to Save the World”  (Read 2689 times)

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Offline PapalTiara

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Saint Alphonsus Liguori

“It is never permissible to commit a sin, not even a venial one, for the purpose of saving the whole world.”

Source: Theologia Moralis, Book II, Chapter 3, Section 24

Offline Ladislaus

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Great Quote ...

Yeah, this is why the moral theology text books spend a ton of time on scenarios like whether it's OK to lie if there are evil men coming to kill some persecuted Catholics by telling them they're not in your home.  Generally, the answer delves into what constitutes a lie, vs. mental reservation, etc. ... i.e. whether saying no is actually a sin.  But the premise of all these Catholic works on moral theology is in fact that you can never do evil in order to prevent greater evil.

I can never perform an abortion "in order to" save the life of the mother.  What I can do is to perform a procedure to save the mother that results unavoidably and regrettably in the death of the unborn child.  Some would claim that this distinction is semantics, but it's absolutely critical ... and that criticism comes only from people who are immersed in the utilitarian mentality that examines only the outcome, the end.  Yes, at the end of the day, the practical outcome is the same: mother lives but baby dies.  But for Catholics, HOW you arrive at that same end is critical ... whereas it's meaningless for a utilitarian moral relativist.  Catholics can't pull out the old abortion suction machine and just hack away at the baby.

See, the other aspect of St. Alphonsus' statement also depends upon a trust and belief in Divine Providence.  If God wanted the world to be saved, per the quote, then He would provide a non-sinful, non-evil way of doing it ... or would intervene and do it himself.  So, the people who have been agitating here about the obligatgion to vote Trump say that those who don't are responsible for all the extra babies that might die from abortion as a result.  Similarly, they'd judge St. Alphonsus as counseling people to be responsible for the whole world being destoyed (something which that josh character basically kept blabbering about LOL).

That's false.  We cannot do evil.  We then leave the consequences to God.  But in no way are we now responsible for the evil that results from our having refused to do evil ourselves.


Offline Pax Vobis

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According to a liberal interpretation of Canon law, "passive attendance" at the new mass is ok.  Therefore, I'm going to "passively vote".

Offline Ladislaus

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According to a liberal interpretation of Canon law, "passive attendance" at the new mass is ok.  Therefore, I'm going to "passively vote".

OK, now you're just being silly here.  Please define "passive vote".  Everyone understands what passive attendance is, where you're merely witnessing/seeing what's going on but not participating in it ... so that it's similar to, say, watching an Indult Mass on TV.  How does one "passively vote"?  That's nonsensical.  Only definition of the term I could see would be if someone said that by NOT voting you "passively vote", i.e. are effectively giving a vote to the opponent of the person that you would otherwise have voted for.

Please define how you can passively vote.

Offline Michelle

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According to a liberal interpretation of Canon law, "passive attendance" at the new mass is ok.  Therefore, I'm going to "passively vote".
If we Catholics do not speak out against sin or even protect, endorse someone committing an evil act, we become complicit in their sin.  This is Catholic teaching.
Trump in his last term as president,  put forward the agenda to abolish laws against sodomy.  He positively, made that unnatural vice, which calls down the vengeance of God, easier to commit without penalty and easier to corrupt the innocent souls of children.


Offline Pax Vobis

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Quote
If we Catholics do not speak out against sin or even protect, endorse someone committing an evil act, we become complicit in their sin.  This is Catholic teaching.
Nope.  According to some catholics, we're allowed to "passively" watch as evil is committed (i.e. Indult/new masses of weddings/funerals).  This is some weird loophole that *most* agree with.

So I can "passively" watch an abortion take place.  Or I can "passively" attend a black mass. 

Thus, I can also "passively" vote.  The voting is rigged anyways, so the outcome is already decided.  My vote doesn't matter, thus my "passive" curiosity in the election process is morally neutral. 

Offline Michelle

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Nope.  According to some catholics, we're allowed to "passively" watch as evil is committed (i.e. Indult/new masses of weddings/funerals).  This is some weird loophole that *most* agree with.

So I can "passively" watch an abortion take place.  Or I can "passively" attend a black mass. 

Thus, I can also "passively" vote.  The voting is rigged anyways, so the outcome is already decided.  My vote doesn't matter, thus my "passive" curiosity in the election process is morally neutral.
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.  Passively watch an abortion?  "According to some Catholics"?  
How can someone "passively vote"  voting is a personal action not an observation.

Offline Ladislaus

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Nope.  According to some catholics, we're allowed to "passively" watch as evil is committed (i.e. Indult/new masses of weddings/funerals).  This is some weird loophole that *most* agree with.

So I can "passively" watch an abortion take place.  Or I can "passively" attend a black mass. 

Thus, I can also "passively" vote.  The voting is rigged anyways, so the outcome is already decided.  My vote doesn't matter, thus my "passive" curiosity in the election process is morally neutral.

You appear to have had some kind of psychological breakdown.  I suggest taking some time away from CathInfo here.


Offline Ladislaus

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I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.  Passively watch an abortion?  "According to some Catholics"? 
How can someone "passively vote"  voting is a personal action not an observation.

He's just in some kind of a meltdown and throwing a tantrum.

Offline Cera

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Trump in his last term as president,  put forward the agenda to abolish laws against sodomy.
No he did not. Please do not post accusations which are the opposite of reality.
See this:

Trump on LGBTQ Rights: Rolling Back Protections and Criminalizing Gender Nonconformity


ACLU
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June 13, 2024
In the second installment of the ACLU’s election 2024 memo series, our experts detail the threats a potential second Trump administration poses to the LGBTQ community, particularly transgender people. 
This piece was published before Joe Biden withdrew from the 2024 presidential election and endorsed Vice President Kamala hαɾɾιs to represent the Democratic Party. No significant facts have been changed or added.
Donald Trump’s administration initiated a sustained, years-long effort to erase protections for LGBTQ people. This included an effort to “define ‘transgender’ out of existence,” erode protections for transgender students and workers, and weaken access to gender-affirming health care that most transgender people already struggled to access.
While President Joe Biden’s administration reversed much of the Trump-era abuses, just last month on the campaign trail, Trump vowed to dismantle a new Biden administration policy that will offer protections for transgender students under Title IX, a federal civil rights law that prohibits sex discrimination in education.
The ACLU is prepared to defend the LGBTQ community, including transgender individuals, from a second Trump administration’s anticipated attempts to weaponize federal law against them. Learn more in our breakdown:


Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

Offline Michelle

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No he did not. Please do not post accusations which are the opposite of reality.
See this:

Trump on LGBTQ Rights: Rolling Back Protections and Criminalizing Gender Nonconformity


ACLU
Share This Page
Share on FacebookPostCopy

June 13, 2024
In the second installment of the ACLU’s election 2024 memo series, our experts detail the threats a potential second Trump administration poses to the LGBTQ community, particularly transgender people. 
This piece was published before Joe Biden withdrew from the 2024 presidential election and endorsed Vice President Kamala hαɾɾιs to represent the Democratic Party. No significant facts have been changed or added.
Donald Trump’s administration initiated a sustained, years-long effort to erase protections for LGBTQ people. This included an effort to “define ‘transgender’ out of existence,” erode protections for transgender students and workers, and weaken access to gender-affirming health care that most transgender people already struggled to access.
While President Joe Biden’s administration reversed much of the Trump-era abuses, just last month on the campaign trail, Trump vowed to dismantle a new Biden administration policy that will offer protections for transgender students under Title IX, a federal civil rights law that prohibits sex discrimination in education.
The ACLU is prepared to defend the LGBTQ community, including transgender individuals, from a second Trump administration’s anticipated attempts to weaponize federal law against them. Learn more in our breakdown:
https://youtu.be/dFRMzR2v4tY?si=RPpRmB1293gCnCMa


Offline Plenus Venter

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There seems to be some questionable moral theology on this thread.
I'm no moralist, so I'm always hesitant to enter such controversies.
However, we've seen what Fr Peter Scott had to say on the subject back in 2007:
https://www.cathinfo.com/politics-and-world-leaders/voting-and-catholic-morality-fr-peter-scott-2007/msg957847/?topicseen#msg957847
it is still permissible to vote in such a case, provided that one can be sure that there truly is a lesser evil, and that there is a grave reason to do so (e.g., to avoid abortion on demand, or promotion of unnatural methods of birth control), and one has the good intention of providing for the good of society as best one can. This is called material cooperation. However, it can never be obligatory.
If we look at the comparisons cited in this thread, abortion and lying, there is an obvious difference: abortion is always a sin in itself, lying is always a sin in itself, voting is not a sin in itself.
Your vote is the ordering of candidates standing for election to produce an outcome on the life of the nation. By voting, you have an effect on that life. By abstaining from voting you have an effect on that life.
Take an example: Candidate A will legislate to permit abortion in the first trimester in cases of rape and danger to the mother's life but will otherwise look like a Catholic ruler on all moral questions and even favour the Catholic religion. Candidate B will legislate to make satanism the cult of the state and make it compulsory in all schools, allowing child sacrifice etc etc...
Now if all the traditional Catholics and all the good people in society abstain from voting guided by the principle laid down by many on this forum that it is never permissible to vote for the lesser evil, then candidate B will certainly be elected and we will end up with a satanic state.
My common sense tells me that there is something amiss here. If I abstained in this vote, my conscience would be troubled that I had committed a sin of omission if we ended up with a satanic state.
By voting for candidate A you are not endorsing their policy of first trimester abortion, but rather, ordering candidates A and B in such a way as to prevent a multitude of sins, to defend God's honour and to save countless souls from Hell.
This is an extereme example, obviously, but it is the principle that some good Catholics, like Archbishop Vigano, are evoking to produce what they see as the best outcome in this election.
Like I say, I'm no theologian, but given what we hear from Archbishop Vigano and Fr Scott, and using my Catholic sense, it looks Catholic to me to reason in this way.
This is not what St Alphonsus is talking about is it?...


Offline Michelle

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There seems to be some questionable moral theology on this thread.
I'm no moralist, so I'm always hesitant to enter such controversies.
However, we've seen what Fr Peter Scott had to say on the subject back in 2007:
https://www.cathinfo.com/politics-and-world-leaders/voting-and-catholic-morality-fr-peter-scott-2007/msg957847/?topicseen#msg957847
it is still permissible to vote in such a case, provided that one can be sure that there truly is a lesser evil, and that there is a grave reason to do so (e.g., to avoid abortion on demand, or promotion of unnatural methods of birth control), and one has the good intention of providing for the good of society as best one can. This is called material cooperation. However, it can never be obligatory.
If we look at the comparisons cited in this thread, abortion and lying, there is an obvious difference: abortion is always a sin in itself, lying is always a sin in itself, voting is not a sin in itself.
Your vote is the ordering of candidates standing for election to produce an outcome on the life of the nation. By voting, you have an effect on that life. By abstaining from voting you have an effect on that life.
Take an example: Candidate A will legislate to permit abortion in the first trimester in cases of rape and danger to the mother's life but will otherwise look like a Catholic ruler on all moral questions and even favour the Catholic religion. Candidate B will legislate to make satanism the cult of the state and make it compulsory in all schools, allowing child sacrifice etc etc...
Now if all the traditional Catholics and all the good people in society abstain from voting guided by the principle laid down by many on this forum that it is never permissible to vote for the lesser evil, then candidate B will certainly be elected and we will end up with a satanic state.
My common sense tells me that there is something amiss here. If I abstained in this vote, my conscience would be troubled that I had committed a sin of omission if we ended up with a satanic state.
By voting for candidate A you are not endorsing their policy of first trimester abortion, but rather, ordering candidates A and B in such a way as to prevent a multitude of sins, to defend God's honour and to save countless souls from Hell.
This is an extereme example, obviously, but it is the principle that some good Catholics, like Archbishop Vigano, are evoking to produce what they see as the best outcome in this election.
Like I say, I'm no theologian, but given what we hear from Archbishop Vigano and Fr Scott, and using my Catholic sense, it looks Catholic to me to reason in this way.
This is not what St Alphonsus is talking about is it?...
In such a case, there can be no obligation to vote, for all the reasons that could oblige, mentioned by Pope Pius XII, no longer apply. Nevertheless, it is still permissible to vote in such a case, provided that one can be sure that there truly is a lesser evil, and that there is a grave reason to do so (e.g., to avoid abortion on demand, or promotion of unnatural methods of birth control), and one has the good intention of providing for the good of society as best one can. This is called material cooperation. However, it can never be obligatory.
Consequently, in the rare case that there is a clearly, publicly Catholic candidate who supports the teaching of the Church, there is a strict moral obligation to vote, under pain of mortal sin. Where there is a clear gain possible from the correct use of a vote for some other candidate, it can be recommended or counseled. However, when there is no clear advantage it would be better to abstain, so as not to contribute even to a material participation.

What exactly is the grave reason?  What does Trump have to offer in making morality great again? 

Offline NishantXavier

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Saint Alphonsus Liguori

“It is never permissible to commit a sin, not even a venial one, for the purpose of saving the whole world.”

Source: Theologia Moralis, Book II, Chapter 3, Section 24
Amen. Agreed with St. Alphonsus.

This does not apply to voting. If anything, the venial sin is doing nothing. Thus, since voting for Trump etc is not a venial sin but is morally justifiable under the principle of double effect, one can do it "for the purpose of saving the whole world" or just to save as many unborn lives as possible without violating the above principle of St. Alphonsus.

Offline PapalTiara

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Quote from: MarkM 2024-11-05, 7:34:25 PM
Amen. Agreed with St. Alphonsus.

This does not apply to voting. If anything, the venial sin is doing nothing. Thus, since voting for Trump etc is not a venial sin but is morally justifiable under the principle of double effect, one can do it "for the purpose of saving the whole world" or just to save as many unborn lives as possible without violating the above principle of St. Alphonsus.
Supporting a political candidate who compromises on the natural law by allowing exceptions for abortion conflicts with fundamental Catholic moral principles. Such support would be considered formal cooperation with evil, which is morally impermissible.