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Poll

If Pope Pius XII had put St. Joseph in the Canon, what would you have done?

I would accept the change and attend St. Joseph Masses
19 (61.3%)
I would not accept the change and would attend only dissident non-St. Joseph Masses
1 (3.2%)
I would accept the change and attend either St. Joseph Masses or non-St. Joseph Masses
11 (35.5%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Voting closed: February 03, 2024, 11:15:00 AM

Author Topic: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass  (Read 41015 times)

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Offline jdfaber

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Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #240 on: February 13, 2024, 11:40:08 AM »
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  • Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma:

    Matter: "The matter for the consummation of the Eucharist is bread and wine. (De fide.)"

    Form: "The form of the Eucharist consists in Christ's words of institution, uttered at the consecration. (Sent. certa.)"

    Minister: "The power of consecration resides in a validly consecrated priest only. (De fide.)"

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #241 on: February 14, 2024, 10:37:37 AM »
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  • Dear Cath-Info peeps,

    A Sacrament remains only a concept until an action is performed.  An example of what I mean by that is that there can be plenty of water around and the Rituale Romanum close by, the real priest, and a crying baby held by the godparents; but until a certain ritual is performed, the Sacrament will not take place. That ritual, a series of actions and words, is called "the rite of the Sacrament".

    The rites of the Sacraments developed organically in the Churches of the East and of the West. The theologians of today may only speculate how much Our Lord told his Apostles about specific words and actions for each of the Sacraments. The differences between Traditions suggest that some of the prayers and rituals were added to the rites by the Churches. The process of the organic development was stopped by the codification of the rites of the Sacraments by the Council of Trent. The bishops and the popes of the Council understood that in order for the Catholic Church to survive another schism, which at that time was the Protestant revolution, She had to have the stable liturgy.
    Consequently, all of the rites of the Sacraments were Codified by the Council, and the books of the Roman Rite were published.

    The entire clergy, including every Pope, was forbidden, under the pain of anathema, to hold in disdain, omit, or change into new ones, the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church accustomed to be used in the solemn administration of the Sacraments.( from Canon 13 of the Seventh Session)

    Issued a short time later, the Bull, "cuм ex Apostolatus Officio", provides a good explanation of why that Canon 13 binds the future popes also. The risk of a heretical, or schismatic pope was a clear and present danger at the time of Pope Paul IV and into the future.

    As the crowning confirmation of the codification process, these words were added to the Creed of the Catholic Church: "I also receive and admit the accepted and approved rites of the Catholic Church in the solemn administration of all aforesaid sacraments" (p.303, Henry Denzinger, "The Sources of the Catholic Dogma". B. Herder Book Co. 1957).

    Needless to say, every pope is bound by the Article of Faith.

    As "Quod Nobis" is the explanation for the Breviary, "Quo Primum" is for the Mass of the Roman Rite.
     The papacy was put in control of all the liturgical books of the East and the West. From that time forward, no change was to be made to received and approved rites of the Sacraments. If we look up the meaning of the word, "control" in the dictionary, we will find that it is not about changing or replacing of the thing to be controlled. It is about governing its use.

    The Missale Romanum is divided into two parts: the "Mass of the Catechumens" and the "Mass of the Faithful". The "Canon of the Mass" is the rule of the "Mass of the Faithful". It provides the rubrics (instructions) for the sacramental part of the Mass. This prayer, the "Canon of the Mass", contains the Sacrament of the Eucharist. 
    The "Canon of the Mass" is the rite of the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

    In spite of the intellectual possibility of conferring the Sacrament of the Eucharist outside of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, it is not possible to have a Mass of the Roman Rite without the Canon. It is nefas. 

    How have we arrived at the present moment in which not only was the name of St. Joseph added to the unchangeable Canon, but also totally different rites of the Sacraments were created? 


    Offline jdfaber

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #242 on: February 14, 2024, 08:26:19 PM »
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  • The entire clergy, including every Pope, was forbidden, under the pain of anathema, to hold in disdain, omit, or change into new ones, the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church accustomed to be used in the solemn administration of the Sacraments.( from Canon 13 of the Seventh Session)

    As the crowning confirmation of the codification process, these words were added to the Creed of the Catholic Church: "I also receive and admit the accepted and approved rites of the Catholic Church in the solemn administration of all aforesaid sacraments" (p.303, Henry Denzinger, "The Sources of the Catholic Dogma". B. Herder Book Co. 1957).

    Needless to say, every pope is bound by the Article of Faith.

    As "Quod Nobis" is the explanation for the Breviary, "Quo Primum" is for the Mass of the Roman Rite.
     The papacy was put in control of all the liturgical books of the East and the West. From that time forward, no change was to be made to received and approved rites of the Sacraments. If we look up the meaning of the word, "control" in the dictionary, we will find that it is not about changing or replacing of the thing to be controlled. It is about governing its use.

    The Missale Romanum is divided into two parts: the "Mass of the Catechumens" and the "Mass of the Faithful". The "Canon of the Mass" is the rule of the "Mass of the Faithful". It provides the rubrics (instructions) for the sacramental part of the Mass. This prayer, the "Canon of the Mass", contains the Sacrament of the Eucharist.
    The "Canon of the Mass" is the rite of the Sacrament of the Eucharist.
    You are misinterpreting that Tridentine canon. The condemned proposition is that the liturgy can be changed by any pastor whatsoever. In other words, if a person were to say, "Any pastor can change the rites into other new ones," he would fall under the anathema of this canon.

    That sentence from the Tridentine Profession of Faith mentions nothing about changing rites.

    I do not know where in Quo primum one can find Pius V doing the things you mention.

    Out of curiosity, where in your Missale Romanum do you find the distinction between the Mass of the Catechumens and the Mass of the Faithful?

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #243 on: February 14, 2024, 09:56:22 PM »
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  • You are misinterpreting that Tridentine canon. The condemned proposition is that the liturgy can be changed by any pastor whatsoever. In other words, if a person were to say, "Any pastor can change the rites into other new ones," he would fall under the anathema of this canon.

    That sentence from the Tridentine Profession of Faith mentions nothing about changing rites.

    I do not know where in Quo primum one can find Pius V doing the things you mention.

    Out of curiosity, where in your Missale Romanum do you find the distinction between the Mass of the Catechumens and the Mass of the Faithful?
    Dear jdfaber,

    The Latin text of Canon 13 of the Seventh Session: "Si quis dixerit, receptos et approbatos Ecclesiae catholicae ritus, in solemni Sacramentorum administratione adhiberi consuetos, out contemni, out sine peccato a minitris pro libito omitti, out in novos alios per qumcunque ecclesiarum pastorem mutari posse, anathema sit. (Dz 737) Henricus Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum et Definitionum, Editio IX, Herder, Friburg. 1900

    The standard for the understanding of the phrase used in any Canon's translation is: "if anyone even would say that...". It would be much worse if whosoever would dare to do such a thing. By the way, the proper translation of quemcunque ecclesiarum pastorem is "whosoever pastor of the churches". That means "You too, Pope!" (quoting the famous Dom Hesse);)

    The sentence from the Profession of Faith simply states that every Catholic is bound to receive and admit the accepted and approved rites of the Catholic Church accustomed to be used in the solemn administration of the Sacraments. If one receives and admits those rites, why would anyone even dream of changing them, by adding or subtracting from them, or making new ones? Pope John XXIII obviously refused to receive and admit the Canon of the Mass as it was accepted and approved by the Catholic Church. His successor, Pope Paul VI, just made up all new rites of Sacraments. At least the latter was obvious in his undertaking; he wanted a different "church".

    The distinction, "Mass of the Catechumens" and the "Mass of the Faithful" comes from "The New Roman Missal" of Rev. F.X. Lasance, Benziger Brothers, 1937, p.73

    Offline jdfaber

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    Re: P, ius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #244 on: February 15, 2024, 08:08:04 AM »
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  • The Missale Romanum is the book that is used by a priest or a bishop for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It is the big leather-bound book, usually red, on the stand on the Altar. It is not the same book as your daily Missal. 
    Fr Hesse is flat out wrong. It's a simple question of logic. The propostion condemned is that any [i.e. every] pastor can change the rites. The denial of this does not at all imply that no pastor can change the rites. 

    Consider this example. Statement: "Anyone can become president." Negation: "Not anyone can become president." You and Fr Hesse would have us believe that "Not anyone" and "no one at all" mean the same thing. They do not.

    Furthermore, this is how everyone at Trent and after Trent, including the Protestants, understood this canon to mean. The Council itself affirmed this in Ch. 2, Session 21, when it said, "It declares furthermore, that in the dispensation of the sacraments, the Church may, according to circuмstances, times and places, determine or change whatever she may judge most expedient for the benefit of those receiving them or for the veneration of the sacraments; and this power has always been hers."


    Offline Texana

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    Re: P, ius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #245 on: February 15, 2024, 05:59:24 PM »
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  • Fr Hesse is flat out wrong. It's a simple question of logic. The propostion condemned is that any [i.e. every] pastor can change the rites. The denial of this does not at all imply that no pastor can change the rites.

    Consider this example. Statement: "Anyone can become president." Negation: "Not anyone can become president." You and Fr Hesse would have us believe that "Not anyone" and "no one at all" mean the same thing. They do not.

    Furthermore, this is how everyone at Trent and after Trent, including the Protestants, understood this canon to mean. The Council itself affirmed this in Ch. 2, Session 21, when it said, "It declares furthermore, that in the dispensation of the sacraments, the Church may, according to circuмstances, times and places, determine or change whatever she may judge most expedient for the benefit of those receiving them or for the veneration of the sacraments; and this power has always been hers."
    Dear jdfaber,

    Consider the quote from the Lasance Missal as a peace offering.

    Dom Hesse is not infallible, yes, but he is spot on here. The problem with your example is your premise that the word "quiscunque" means "any" or "every"; while the only correct translation is "whosoever".  "Whosoever pastor of the churches" could be the Pope, a bishop, a patriarch, an abbot, a priest.

    The XXI Session of Trent focused on the Doctrine on Communion under both Species and that of little children. Chapter 2 treats of administration of the Sacrament of the Eucharist. That means it refers to the use of the Sacrament, not effecting the Sacrament. The Council here justifies the decision of the Latin Church to distribute Communion under one specie. The translation you provided refers to the process of administration as dispensation.

    As a side note, please visit Reply #33 of this thread which dealt with the difference between the thing and the action.

    If everyone at Trent and after Trent, including the Protestants, understood Canon 13 of the Seventh Session the way you describe, then there should be plenty of materials to browse. Please provide quotes and sources. I would really appreciate it!

    Offline jdfaber

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #246 on: February 22, 2024, 03:49:42 PM »
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  • If you look up quicuмque in Lewis & Short, you will see that "whosoever" is not the only correct translation.

    Nevertheless, assuming arguendo that your understanding of the meaning of quicuмque is correct, let's try it this way.

    Statement: Whatsoever pastor of the Church can change the rites.
    Negation: Not whatsoever pastor of the Church can change the rites.

    The logic remains the same. Denying "whatsoever pastor" does not imply affirming "no pastor at all."



    For Suarez's discussion of who can change sacramental ceremonies, please read Section III here in translation or here in Latin. Of particular relevance is his discussion of Canon 13:

    Quote
    Whence are understood the words of the cited Canon of the Tridentine Council, sess. 7 can. 13 where it says thus: If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by any pastor whomever of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema.These words are to be understood chiefly of the universal rites received in the universal Church, especially the Roman Church, of which rites the Council does not say, that they can be changed by no pastor, but not by whomever: for they cannot be changed by inferior Bishops: because universal rites such as these, as I have said, have their origin from a more universal and superior power: but inferiors are not able to derogate those things which have been instituted and commanded by a superior. Now the supreme Pontiff, from the plenitude of his power, would be able to change rites of this sort: because his power is not inferior, but is the same as that from which rites of this sort took their origin. Yet he never does or will do this without great necessity or utility, especially in these observances which are most ancient in the Church, and are believed to have been given by the Apostles, and perpetually observed. And one must judge, with the same proportion, of the private ceremonies of particular Episcopates. For these can also be changed by Bishops, if they should think it expedient, when they have not been confirmed by the proper authority of the supreme Pontiff, for the same reason. Yet one must beware of scandal in changes of this sort, and consideration of divine worship and the fruit of souls must always be kept in mind for the opportunity of times and places.
    In other words, he reads the canon in the exact way I told you above.


    The Salmanticenses give the exact same reading here in disp. X, dub. I, §1 n. 4.

    After the sixth session of the Council of Trent, Cardinal Cervini had a list of Protestant errors compiled for the Council to consider. One of these errors was Quemvis pastorem habere potestatem formas sacramentorum prologandi et abbreviandi pro arbitrio suo, et mutandi (see art. 12 here. This particular error was taken from Hermann von Wied's Liber reformationis. He was the heretical archbishop of Cologne. This book was largely drawn from the work of Martin Bucer. Thus it threw out all but two of the sacraments and held that their ceremonies, other than what was in Scripture, could be changed at will by any pastor.

    You can read what Protestant Martin Chemnitz had to say about Canon 13 here. He understood this canon to deny authority to change rites to all pastors except the Pope. Calvin also understood the canon thus (here). Johann Heinrich Heidegger also read this canon as denying the right of Christians to change rites when necessary (here and here).

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #247 on: February 22, 2024, 04:03:28 PM »
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  • If you look up quicuмque in Lewis & Short, you will see that "whosoever" is not the only correct translation.

    Nevertheless, assuming arguendo that your understanding of the meaning of quicuмque is correct, let's try it this way.

    Statement: Whatsoever pastor of the Church can change the rites.
    Negation: Not whatsoever pastor of the Church can change the rites.

    The logic remains the same. Denying "whatsoever pastor" does not imply affirming "no pastor at all."



    For Suarez's discussion of who can change sacramental ceremonies, please read Section III here in translation or here in Latin. Of particular relevance is his discussion of Canon 13:
    In other words, he reads the canon in the exact way I told you above.


    The Salmanticenses give the exact same reading here in disp. X, dub. I, §1 n. 4.

    After the sixth session of the Council of Trent, Cardinal Cervini had a list of Protestant errors compiled for the Council to consider. One of these errors was Quemvis pastorem habere potestatem formas sacramentorum prologandi et abbreviandi pro arbitrio suo, et mutandi (see art. 12 here. This particular error was taken from Hermann von Wied's Liber reformationis. He was the heretical archbishop of Cologne. This book was largely drawn from the work of Martin Bucer. Thus it threw out all but two of the sacraments and held that their ceremonies, other than what was in Scripture, could be changed at will by any pastor.

    You can read what Protestant Martin Chemnitz had to say about Canon 13 here. He understood this canon to deny authority to change rites to all pastors except the Pope. Calvin also understood the canon thus (here). Johann Heinrich Heidegger also read this canon as denying the right of Christians to change rites when necessary (here and here).

    Impressive research.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #248 on: February 23, 2024, 01:10:50 PM »
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  • If you look up quicuмque in Lewis & Short, you will see that "whosoever" is not the only correct translation.

    Nevertheless, assuming arguendo that your understanding of the meaning of quicuмque is correct, let's try it this way.

    Statement: Whatsoever pastor of the Church can change the rites.
    Negation: Not whatsoever pastor of the Church can change the rites.

    The logic remains the same. Denying "whatsoever pastor" does not imply affirming "no pastor at all."



    For Suarez's discussion of who can change sacramental ceremonies, please read Section III here in translation or here in Latin. Of particular relevance is his discussion of Canon 13:
    In other words, he reads the canon in the exact way I told you above.


    The Salmanticenses give the exact same reading here in disp. X, dub. I, §1 n. 4.

    After the sixth session of the Council of Trent, Cardinal Cervini had a list of Protestant errors compiled for the Council to consider. One of these errors was Quemvis pastorem habere potestatem formas sacramentorum prologandi et abbreviandi pro arbitrio suo, et mutandi (see art. 12 here. This particular error was taken from Hermann von Wied's Liber reformationis. He was the heretical archbishop of Cologne. This book was largely drawn from the work of Martin Bucer. Thus it threw out all but two of the sacraments and held that their ceremonies, other than what was in Scripture, could be changed at will by any pastor.

    You can read what Protestant Martin Chemnitz had to say about Canon 13 here. He understood this canon to deny authority to change rites to all pastors except the Pope. Calvin also understood the canon thus (here). Johann Heinrich Heidegger also read this canon as denying the right of Christians to change rites when necessary (here and here).
    Dear jdfaber,

    If one removes, from the dictionary page you have supplied, the references to the "thing" (quid) and leaves those to the "person" (quis), the page will read:
    I. Whoever, whosoever, every one who, all that.

    Every example given in English confirms that: a) quicuмque is est, ei me etc - whosoever
    b) quoscuмque de te quieri audivi, quacuмque potui ratione placari - whomsoever I have heard complaining, them I have satisfied in every possible way

    II. Transf, each or every possible, all

    We owe Dom Hesse a prayer: Requiem Aeternam dona eis Domine.

     The correct approach is thus: 
    Statement: Whosoever pastor of the churches can change the rites of the Sacraments.
    Negation: None soever pastor of the churches can change the rites of the Sacraments.

    To properly understand Fr. Francisco Suarez and the College of Carmelites, a distinction has to be made:

    The rites of the Sacraments are attached to and provide the rubrics for the form and matter of the Sacraments. Many rites employed in effecting the Sacraments can also be used as the stand alone rites; and as such, they are called Sacramentals. Examples are: the sign of the cross, aspersion with Holy Water, exorcism, consecration of an altar, blessing of the palms, etc.

    Theologian Fr. Suarez presents actually both in his proposition. In the sentence : "Unde intelliguntur verba citati ..." he simply states the Canon and does not comment on it. Then he introduces the topic of Sacramentals with "Haec enim verba...". (The following is a slavish translation from Latin to English): " For these words are understood specifically about universal rites received in the universal Church, about which the Council does not say that can be changed by no pastor, but not by whosoever; since they cannot be changed by inferior bishops, because these universal rites, as I (Suarez) said, have their origin from the universal and superior power; inferiors than cannot derogate these things which are instituted and prescribed by the superior (entities)."

     Theologians try to ascribe the creation of the rites of the Sacraments to the Apostles who were the bishops, and to their successors until Trent.  It should follow that their successors, being bishops as their equals, could introduce desired changes. But this is not what Fr. Suarez is saying. He requires the plenitude of power of the Pope to be involved; suggesting that at least a pope was engaged in creation of the rites of the Sacraments. So, if the whole quote from "Haec enim verba..." to this point is about the rites of the Sacraments, we arrive at the conclusion that only the popes introduced the rites of the Sacraments. By divorcing the rites of the Sacraments from the Sacraments, we are stating that Our Lord Jesus Christ left only the words of the form and explanations as to the matter of the Sacraments, without instructions of how to put them together, that were to be supplied by Popes. 

    In the case of the Canon of the Mass of the Roman Rite, none of the words of the Canon, and not even the words "Mysterium Fidei" could be linked to Christ from the pages of the New Testament. We know, however, that it is not so. Pope Innocent III in his letter "cuм Marthae circa..." states "...Surely we find many such things omitted from the words as well as from the deeds of the Lord by the Evangelists, which the Apostles are read to have supplied by word or to have expressed by deed, ..." (Dz. 414) The Sources of the Catholic Dogma, Henry Denzinger, Herder Book Inc. 1957 p. 163.

    We know also that there is no error present in the Canon, as was quoted earlier in the thread.

    The truth is that theologians can only speculate which words of the rites of the Sacraments come from the Church and which originated with Christ. How much did Our Lord convey to St. Thomas before his mission to the East?
    So it makes sense that Fr. Francisco Suarez, instead of trying to explain Canon 13, which is the Canon meant for the Universal Church of East and West, immediately narrows the scope of his presentation to the Roman Rite in particular, and to the Sacramentals, not the rites of the Sacraments. This approach will later be manifested in "Mediator Dei" of Pope Pius XII, where in Nr. 58 he states: "It follows from this that the Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification. Bishops for their part, have the right and duty carefully to watch over the exact observance of the prescriptions of the sacred canons respecting the divine worship." That last sentence limits what Fr. Suarez actually wrote about private ceremonies of the bishops which they have the freedom to change (in the opinion of Fr. Suarez) providing no scandal was given.

    The Carmelites of Salamanca follow Fr. Suarez's pattern, but add that there exists obligation in conscience to observe the rites and ceremonies of the Church. They also stress with St.Paul in the words from the letter to the Romans 13: "For there is no power but from God: and those that are ordained of God. Therefore he that resisteth the power resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist purchase to themselves damnation."

    Their conclusion is: "Eum igitur Ecclessia praecipiat ritus, et ceremonias: sequitur nos obligari ad haec observanda".   The popes are bound in conscience to observe the rites of the Sacraments. All other rites, being Sacramentals established by the Church and approved by their predecessors, are for them to protect and in magna necessitate, et evidentissima utilitate mutare.

    Offline jdfaber

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #249 on: February 23, 2024, 03:42:54 PM »
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  • The rites of the Sacraments are attached to and provide the rubrics for the form and matter of the Sacraments. Many rites employed in effecting the Sacraments can also be used as the stand alone rites; and as such, they are called Sacramentals. Examples are: the sign of the cross, aspersion with Holy Water, exorcism, consecration of an altar, blessing of the palms, etc.
    That is not how the word rite is used by the canon or its interpreters. The erroneous propostion Quemvis pastorem habere potestatem formas sacramentorum prologandi et abbreviandi pro arbitrio suo, et mutandi was docuмented by Johann Gropper, who docuмented many of the Protestant errors in the aforementioned Liber reformationis (See here).

    However, he uses the word forma in a much broader sense than to just mean the sacramental form. Indeed, Gropper is talking about how the Protestants got rid of all the things you refer to as "sacramentals," but he uses instead forma. Thus when the Council was considering to word a condemnation of this, they realized that forma lent itself to being understood too narrowly as you understand it. Therefore, they changed the wording of the canon to its final form.

    You can read all about the textual history of this canon here.

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #250 on: February 23, 2024, 05:59:05 PM »
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  • That is not how the word rite is used by the canon or its interpreters. The erroneous propostion Quemvis pastorem habere potestatem formas sacramentorum prologandi et abbreviandi pro arbitrio suo, et mutandi was docuмented by Johann Gropper, who docuмented many of the Protestant errors in the aforementioned Liber reformationis (See here).

    However, he uses the word forma in a much broader sense than to just mean the sacramental form. Indeed, Gropper is talking about how the Protestants got rid of all the things you refer to as "sacramentals," but he uses instead forma. Thus when the Council was considering to word a condemnation of this, they realized that forma lent itself to being understood too narrowly as you understand it. Therefore, they changed the wording of the canon to its final form.

    You can read all about the textual history of this canon here.

    Dear jdfaber,

    Thank you very much.  I'll be reading!


    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #251 on: February 27, 2024, 09:59:58 PM »
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  • That is not how the word rite is used by the canon or its interpreters. The erroneous propostion Quemvis pastorem habere potestatem formas sacramentorum prologandi et abbreviandi pro arbitrio suo, et mutandi was docuмented by Johann Gropper, who docuмented many of the Protestant errors in the aforementioned Liber reformationis (See here).

    However, he uses the word forma in a much broader sense than to just mean the sacramental form. Indeed, Gropper is talking about how the Protestants got rid of all the things you refer to as "sacramentals," but he uses instead forma. Thus when the Council was considering to word a condemnation of this, they realized that forma lent itself to being understood too narrowly as you understand it. Therefore, they changed the wording of the canon to its final form.

    You can read all about the textual history of this canon here.

    Dear jdfaber,

    I keep reading as my time permits and one question constantly comes up: Are the canons of the Tridentine Council infallible statements? Are they dogmatic statements? Or, are they simply guide rules with penalties attached to them?  What does the Roman Catholic Church teach in this matter?

    Thank you for your help.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #252 on: February 28, 2024, 04:20:38 AM »
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  • Dear jdfaber,

    I keep reading as my time permits and one question constantly comes up: Are the canons of the Tridentine Council infallible statements? Are they dogmatic statements? Or, are they simply guide rules with penalties attached to them?  What does the Roman Catholic Church teach in this matter?

    Thank you for your help.

    Yes, the Canons are infallible because they deal with morals, their purpose is to condemn something as a sin (i.e let him be anathema), making it immoral i.e. sinful to do.  



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #253 on: February 28, 2024, 04:58:52 AM »
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  • I have no idea how this thread has gone in for 17 pages.  It’s absolutely clear to those who don’t have some agenda that a pope can change the Canon of the Mass.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #254 on: February 28, 2024, 08:00:24 AM »
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  • Quote
    It’s absolutely clear to those who don’t have some agenda that a pope can change the Canon of the Mass.
    He can change the aspects which were added by the Church; he cannot change the parts which are Apostolic (i.e. came directly from Christ).