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Poll

If Pope Pius XII had put St. Joseph in the Canon, what would you have done?

I would accept the change and attend St. Joseph Masses
19 (61.3%)
I would not accept the change and would attend only dissident non-St. Joseph Masses
1 (3.2%)
I would accept the change and attend either St. Joseph Masses or non-St. Joseph Masses
11 (35.5%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Voting closed: February 03, 2024, 11:15:00 AM

Author Topic: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass  (Read 62629 times)

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Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #200 on: February 11, 2024, 09:02:30 AM »
Dear Cath Info peeps,

Since we have discussed that, in the matter of the law, discipline, and yes, a certain kind of liturgy, one pope cannot bind another: how are we in the Church of Christ and not in the Church of the Pope? If one pope can change the way we pray, he will affect the way we believe. If that process is repeated over several papacies, we will have a different religion. How does one pope bind another one?

The Canon of the Mass is different from the Breviary. How is it different? What is the anaphora prayer?   So far in the discussion, we know only where the Canon starts and not where it ends.

I have three different Missale Romani 1939, 1942, and 1952; two printed in the United States and one in Germany. All of them indicate that the Canon ends with the "Deo Gratias" after the Last Gospel. Is there a reason why the modern liturgists want the Canon to end with "Pater Noster"?

Re: P, ius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #201 on: February 11, 2024, 11:22:09 AM »

Quote
I have three different Missale Romani 1939, 1942, and 1952; two printed in the United States and one in Germany. All of them indicate that the Canon ends with the "Deo Gratias" after the Last Gospel. Is there a reason why the modern liturgists want the Canon to end with "Pater Noster"?


I have five different Missals: St. Joseph Daily (1951 and 1961), St. Andrew Daily (1961), Father Lasance's My Prayer Book (1908), and Blessed Be God (1925).  I'll cite only two, though the others do not contradict my citations in any way I am aware of.

The St. Joseph Daily Missal (1951) correctly divides the Mass into two main parts: The Mass of the Catechumens and the Mass of the Faithful.  The Mass of the Faithful is divided into three principal parts: The Offering (Offertory), The Consecration, and The Communion.  About the Consecration it says: "The second act of the Eucharistic sacrifice begins with the Preface and concludes with the words, 'World without end.  Amen' (just before the Pater Noster).  This part of Mass is strictly speaking, the Canon ...".

Blessed Be God (1925) distinguishes different parts of the Second Part of the Mass, or the Mass of the Faithful, as (1) The Offertory, (2) The Preface, (3) The Canon, (4) The Pater Noster and the Breaking of The Host, (5) the Communion, and (6) Conclusion of the Mass.

I am unaware of ANY traditional source that refers to the entire Mass of the Faithful as "the Canon". 


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #202 on: February 11, 2024, 12:08:38 PM »
Dear Cath Info peeps,

Since we have discussed that, in the matter of the law, discipline, and yes, a certain kind of liturgy, one pope cannot bind another: how are we in the Church of Christ and not in the Church of the Pope? If one pope can change the way we pray, he will affect the way we believe. If that process is repeated over several papacies, we will have a different religion. How does one pope bind another one?

Since Our Lord is not directly present on earth (outside the Blessed Sacrament of course), the Pope is his Vicar, i.e. the Pope takes the place of Christ on earth.  So, being in the Church of Christ is being in the Church of the Pope.  How does something like inserting the name of St. Joseph explicitly into the Canon (he's already there implicitly) change "the way we believe"?  It's actually precisely through such small, gradual changes that the Holy Spirit guides the Sacred Liturgy.  Neither the Canon nor the Mass were some monolithic thing that was dropped from Heaven.  While the faith doesn't change, its expression can, and historical circuмstances change, so different things are emphasized at one time that may not be at another (depending on, for instance, what heresies might be out there).  We see this already where the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is different in the West than in the East, and yet it's the same Holy Sacrifice, with different aspects of the Catholic faith emphasized more in one Rite than in another.  Small changes absolutely do not change the "way we believe".

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: P, ius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #203 on: February 11, 2024, 12:10:21 PM »
I am unaware of ANY traditional source that refers to the entire Mass of the Faithful as "the Canon".

Neither am I.

Re: P, ius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #204 on: February 11, 2024, 01:37:50 PM »

I have five different Missals: St. Joseph Daily (1951 and 1961), St. Andrew Daily (1961), Father Lasance's My Prayer Book (1908), and Blessed Be God (1925).  I'll cite only two, though the others do not contradict my citations in any way I am aware of.

The St. Joseph Daily Missal (1951) correctly divides the Mass into two main parts: The Mass of the Catechumens and the Mass of the Faithful.  The Mass of the Faithful is divided into three principal parts: The Offering (Offertory), The Consecration, and The Communion.  About the Consecration it says: "The second act of the Eucharistic sacrifice begins with the Preface and concludes with the words, 'World without end.  Amen' (just before the Pater Noster).  This part of Mass is strictly speaking, the Canon ...".

Blessed Be God (1925) distinguishes different parts of the Second Part of the Mass, or the Mass of the Faithful, as (1) The Offertory, (2) The Preface, (3) The Canon, (4) The Pater Noster and the Breaking of The Host, (5) the Communion, and (6) Conclusion of the Mass.

I am unaware of ANY traditional source that refers to the entire Mass of the Faithful as "the Canon".
Dear moneil and Ladislaus,

The Missale Romanum is the book that is used by a priest or a bishop for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It is the big leather-bound book, usually red, on the stand on the Altar. It is not the same book as your daily Missal.

Thank you for noticing that the Holy Mass has two distinctive parts: The "Mass of the Catechumens" and the "Mass of the Faithful". The Canon is contained in the "Mass of the Faithful". There is no sacrifice without a victim, offering a victim, and immolation of a victim. This is the Mass. If the Canon is only a prayer disconnected from the sacrifice, then it can be changed.

How is the Canon connected with the Sacrament of the Eucharist?