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Poll

If Pope Pius XII had put St. Joseph in the Canon, what would you have done?

I would accept the change and attend St. Joseph Masses
19 (61.3%)
I would not accept the change and would attend only dissident non-St. Joseph Masses
1 (3.2%)
I would accept the change and attend either St. Joseph Masses or non-St. Joseph Masses
11 (35.5%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Voting closed: February 03, 2024, 11:15:00 AM

Author Topic: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass  (Read 41017 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #195 on: February 08, 2024, 07:43:57 AM »
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  • You blinded yourself to the part where he said: "no pope can ever licitly abrogate the bull of St. Pius V."

    And you conveniently leave off the next part, eh, Stubborn? ... where he says that he can VALIDLY do so.  This means, as per before, that he CAN do it even if he SHOULDN'T.  Nor would the addition of St. Joseph to the Canon constitute an "abrogation" rather than an amendment to it.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #196 on: February 08, 2024, 07:45:47 AM »
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  • Only sedes beg the question as regards the status of popes, it's their foundation. And everyone knows Quo Primum was never abrogated - except you and apparently some other sedes.

    We're not begging anything, moron, you are.  Unlike you, who keeps mendaciously distracting from the issue at hand, for us the legitimacy of Ratzinger has nothing to do with the issue.  Moreover, his claiming that it HAS not been abrogated is not the same as saying that it CANNOT be abrogated.

    Of course you assume, even if you think he's the Pope, that he's telling the truth rather than using it as a tactic.  This is the guy who produced a clearly fake explanation for the Third Secret of Fatima, so he has a history of deception.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #197 on: February 08, 2024, 08:11:56 AM »
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  • And you conveniently leave off the next part, eh, Stubborn? ... where he says that he can VALIDLY do so.  This means, as per before, that he CAN do it even if he SHOULDN'T.  Nor would the addition of St. Joseph to the Canon constitute an "abrogation" rather than an amendment to it.
    I did not leave it off in the original quote. You should read the link, it explains the conclusion.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #198 on: February 08, 2024, 08:20:23 AM »
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  • We're not begging anything, moron, you are.  Unlike you, who keeps mendaciously distracting from the issue at hand, for us the legitimacy of Ratzinger has nothing to do with the issue.  Moreover, his claiming that it HAS not been abrogated is not the same as saying that it CANNOT be abrogated.

    Of course you assume, even if you think he's the Pope, that he's telling the truth rather than using it as a tactic.  This is the guy who produced a clearly fake explanation for the Third Secret of Fatima, so he has a history of deception.
    I'm not begging anything, you're the one you said: "You also beg the question that Ratzinger was even the Pope..."

    I do not believe that Quo Primum can ever be abrogated. There are many others who believe or believed this - even the Dimonds believed it before they went full on sede.

    I also quoted from no less than 3 different priests that agree with me, one is a recording you cannot hear apparently because it offends you to hear non-sedes speak Catholic truth and common sense, but that's your own problem.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline jdfaber

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #199 on: February 09, 2024, 07:45:49 AM »
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  • Augustine, A commentary on the new Code of Canon Law, vol. 1 (1918), p. 103:
    Quote
    Papal constitutions sometimes contain the clause, “hac immutabili et in perpetuum valitura constitutione.” This is merely an emphatic assertion that the law should not be recalled without reason; it does not bind the Pope’s successor, because “par in parem non habet imperium.” If the successor expressly mentions his predecessor’s law as abolished, the latter loses its force.
    [color=rgba(var(--sk_highlight, 18, 100, 163), 1)]https://books.google.com/books?id=dTlZAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA103[/url][/font][/size][/color]



    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #200 on: February 11, 2024, 09:02:30 AM »
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  • Dear Cath Info peeps,

    Since we have discussed that, in the matter of the law, discipline, and yes, a certain kind of liturgy, one pope cannot bind another: how are we in the Church of Christ and not in the Church of the Pope? If one pope can change the way we pray, he will affect the way we believe. If that process is repeated over several papacies, we will have a different religion. How does one pope bind another one?

    The Canon of the Mass is different from the Breviary. How is it different? What is the anaphora prayer?   So far in the discussion, we know only where the Canon starts and not where it ends.

    I have three different Missale Romani 1939, 1942, and 1952; two printed in the United States and one in Germany. All of them indicate that the Canon ends with the "Deo Gratias" after the Last Gospel. Is there a reason why the modern liturgists want the Canon to end with "Pater Noster"?

    Offline moneil

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    Re: P, ius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #201 on: February 11, 2024, 11:22:09 AM »
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  • Quote
    I have three different Missale Romani 1939, 1942, and 1952; two printed in the United States and one in Germany. All of them indicate that the Canon ends with the "Deo Gratias" after the Last Gospel. Is there a reason why the modern liturgists want the Canon to end with "Pater Noster"?


    I have five different Missals: St. Joseph Daily (1951 and 1961), St. Andrew Daily (1961), Father Lasance's My Prayer Book (1908), and Blessed Be God (1925).  I'll cite only two, though the others do not contradict my citations in any way I am aware of.

    The St. Joseph Daily Missal (1951) correctly divides the Mass into two main parts: The Mass of the Catechumens and the Mass of the Faithful.  The Mass of the Faithful is divided into three principal parts: The Offering (Offertory), The Consecration, and The Communion.  About the Consecration it says: "The second act of the Eucharistic sacrifice begins with the Preface and concludes with the words, 'World without end.  Amen' (just before the Pater Noster).  This part of Mass is strictly speaking, the Canon ...".

    Blessed Be God (1925) distinguishes different parts of the Second Part of the Mass, or the Mass of the Faithful, as (1) The Offertory, (2) The Preface, (3) The Canon, (4) The Pater Noster and the Breaking of The Host, (5) the Communion, and (6) Conclusion of the Mass.

    I am unaware of ANY traditional source that refers to the entire Mass of the Faithful as "the Canon". 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #202 on: February 11, 2024, 12:08:38 PM »
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  • Dear Cath Info peeps,

    Since we have discussed that, in the matter of the law, discipline, and yes, a certain kind of liturgy, one pope cannot bind another: how are we in the Church of Christ and not in the Church of the Pope? If one pope can change the way we pray, he will affect the way we believe. If that process is repeated over several papacies, we will have a different religion. How does one pope bind another one?

    Since Our Lord is not directly present on earth (outside the Blessed Sacrament of course), the Pope is his Vicar, i.e. the Pope takes the place of Christ on earth.  So, being in the Church of Christ is being in the Church of the Pope.  How does something like inserting the name of St. Joseph explicitly into the Canon (he's already there implicitly) change "the way we believe"?  It's actually precisely through such small, gradual changes that the Holy Spirit guides the Sacred Liturgy.  Neither the Canon nor the Mass were some monolithic thing that was dropped from Heaven.  While the faith doesn't change, its expression can, and historical circuмstances change, so different things are emphasized at one time that may not be at another (depending on, for instance, what heresies might be out there).  We see this already where the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is different in the West than in the East, and yet it's the same Holy Sacrifice, with different aspects of the Catholic faith emphasized more in one Rite than in another.  Small changes absolutely do not change the "way we believe".


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: P, ius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #203 on: February 11, 2024, 12:10:21 PM »
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  • I am unaware of ANY traditional source that refers to the entire Mass of the Faithful as "the Canon".

    Neither am I.

    Offline Texana

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    Re: P, ius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #204 on: February 11, 2024, 01:37:50 PM »
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  • I have five different Missals: St. Joseph Daily (1951 and 1961), St. Andrew Daily (1961), Father Lasance's My Prayer Book (1908), and Blessed Be God (1925).  I'll cite only two, though the others do not contradict my citations in any way I am aware of.

    The St. Joseph Daily Missal (1951) correctly divides the Mass into two main parts: The Mass of the Catechumens and the Mass of the Faithful.  The Mass of the Faithful is divided into three principal parts: The Offering (Offertory), The Consecration, and The Communion.  About the Consecration it says: "The second act of the Eucharistic sacrifice begins with the Preface and concludes with the words, 'World without end.  Amen' (just before the Pater Noster).  This part of Mass is strictly speaking, the Canon ...".

    Blessed Be God (1925) distinguishes different parts of the Second Part of the Mass, or the Mass of the Faithful, as (1) The Offertory, (2) The Preface, (3) The Canon, (4) The Pater Noster and the Breaking of The Host, (5) the Communion, and (6) Conclusion of the Mass.

    I am unaware of ANY traditional source that refers to the entire Mass of the Faithful as "the Canon".
    Dear moneil and Ladislaus,

    The Missale Romanum is the book that is used by a priest or a bishop for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It is the big leather-bound book, usually red, on the stand on the Altar. It is not the same book as your daily Missal.

    Thank you for noticing that the Holy Mass has two distinctive parts: The "Mass of the Catechumens" and the "Mass of the Faithful". The Canon is contained in the "Mass of the Faithful". There is no sacrifice without a victim, offering a victim, and immolation of a victim. This is the Mass. If the Canon is only a prayer disconnected from the sacrifice, then it can be changed.

    How is the Canon connected with the Sacrament of the Eucharist?

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #205 on: February 11, 2024, 02:41:09 PM »
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  • Since Our Lord is not directly present on earth (outside the Blessed Sacrament of course), the Pope is his Vicar, i.e. the Pope takes the place of Christ on earth.  So, being in the Church of Christ is being in the Church of the Pope.  How does something like inserting the name of St. Joseph explicitly into the Canon (he's already there implicitly) change "the way we believe"?  It's actually precisely through such small, gradual changes that the Holy Spirit guides the Sacred Liturgy.  Neither the Canon nor the Mass were some monolithic thing that was dropped from Heaven.  While the faith doesn't change, its expression can, and historical circuмstances change, so different things are emphasized at one time that may not be at another (depending on, for instance, what heresies might be out there).  We see this already where the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is different in the West than in the East, and yet it's the same Holy Sacrifice, with different aspects of the Catholic faith emphasized more in one Rite than in another.  Small changes absolutely do not change the "way we believe".
    Dear Ladislaus,  

    It would be helpful if someone provided what the word, "codify" means as I previously requested.
    While the organic changes to all the rites of Sacraments were introduced until their codification by Trent, no changes are permitted afterwards. The Council of Trent has deemed certain things settled.

    As for small, gradual changes:  "In substance, the motu proprio granted little of the much that the Constitution had promised. But we must keep in mind the principle of gradualness that had to be followed in the practical implementation of the conciliar docuмent..." (Anibale Bugnini. The Reform of the Liturgy 1948-1975. The Liturgical Press, Collegeville, Minn. 1983. p.58)
    The motu proprio to which he was referring was the 1964 docuмent, "Sanctam Liturgiam".

    "The principle of gradualness was also the basis of the Concillium's concern to introduce first those changes which were indispensable for a more intense liturgical participation and which at the same time would not prejudice the future reform. It limited itself to those changes that it could be fairly sure would also be adopted in the subsequent reform." (ibid. p.100)
    The author of these two quotes was an active participant in the insertion of the name of St. Joseph into the Canon. What principle did he use under Pope Pius XII?  Please keep in mind that the Dialogue Mass had already been introduced.

    The expression of the Faith changes? Historical circuмstances change? Yes, and how do they affect the Faith? How is Our Lord going to find Faith when He comes back, if it is expressed according to the Zeitgeist?

    As "Quo Primum" of Pope Saint Pius V assures us, there were no new Missals issued in the Eastern Rite as well as in the Latin Church since two hundred years preceding the Bull. I am not sure that there is a different emphasis in the Eastern Rite, and if you have any quotes, I would appreciate you providing them. 

    The Eastern Tradition was more resilient to the modernist spirit. Unfortunately, Cardinal Marini worked feverishly on gradual changes; "... a little addition or subtraction in the anaphora prayer here and there does not really alter the Faith".


    Offline jdfaber

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #206 on: February 11, 2024, 03:38:29 PM »
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  • Quo primum did nothing with respect to the Eastern rites or their liturgies.

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #207 on: February 11, 2024, 03:41:54 PM »
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  • Quo primum did nothing with respect to the Eastern rites or their liturgies.
    Dear jdfaber,
    That is correct! It did not need to.

    Offline moneil

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #208 on: February 12, 2024, 01:20:27 AM »
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  • Quote
    The Missale Romanum is the book that is used by a priest or a bishop for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It is the big leather-bound book, usually red, on the stand on the Altar. It is not the same book as your daily Missal.
     
    The Roman Missal is the, well, Roman Missal.  There is an altar edition, which is “complete”, and there are the (usually bilingual) hand missals used by the laity to follow the Mass.  They generally have all the prayers of the Mass, but not necessarily the complete rubrics, though many have explanations of the parts of the Mass.  In my years as a pre VII altar server, and when I attend a 1962 missal Mass now, I have never seen a “leather-bound” altar missal, they were and are always hard bound.
     
    Quote
    All of them (the Roman Altar Missal) indicate that the Canon ends with the "Deo Gratias" after the Last Gospel.
     
    Just exactly how do they indicate this?  I’m pretty sure they don’t.  In any case, the Mass ends with the Ite, Missa est, which is BEFORE the Placeat tibi … prayer, the blessing of the congregation, and the Last Gospel.  How would the Canon of the Mass continue on after the Mass has ended?  EVERY resource that I, and others here, are aware of all indicate that the Canon of the Mass concludes with the Per Ipsum, et cuм Ipso, et in Ipso … at the Minor Elevation.



    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #209 on: February 12, 2024, 05:13:58 AM »
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  • It would be helpful if someone provided what the word, "codify" means as I previously requested.
    While the organic changes to all the rites of Sacraments were introduced until their codification by Trent, no changes are permitted afterwards. The Council of Trent has deemed certain things settled.
    Not sure why codify is stumping you but the codices spoken of below are the official, ancient docuмents on the Liturgy that were stored in the Vatican Library.

    Codify simply means they arranged the prayers of the Liturgy in a certain order, in doing so they restored the Missal itself to it's original form. This is stated in the opening paragraphs (quoted below) of Quo Primum.

    This was his mission, to restore the Missal to it's original form which dates back to the time of Christ and the Apostles. The law of Quo Primum's purpose is to preserve this same original Missal forever.

    After all that, there are those among who foolishly insist popes have the authority to legitimately change the Original Missal.....because one pope cannot bind another pope. 


    Quote
    Quo Primum.....
    From the very first, upon Our elevation to the chief Apostleship, We gladly turned our mind and energies and
    directed all our thoughts to those matters which concerned the preservation of a pure liturgy, and We strove
    with God’s help, by every means in our power, to accomplish this purpose. For, besides other decrees of the
    sacred Council of Trent, there were stipulations for Us to revise and re-edit the sacred books: the Catechism,
    the Missal and the Breviary. With the Catechism published for the instruction of the faithful, by God’s help,
    and the Breviary thoroughly revised for the worthy praise of God, in order that the Missal and Breviary may
    be in perfect harmony, as fitting and proper – for its most becoming that there be in the Church only one
    appropriate manner of reciting the Psalms and only one rite for the celebration of Mass – We deemed it
    necessary to give our immediate attention to what still remained to be done, viz, the re-editing of the Missal
    as soon as possible.

    Hence, We decided to entrust this work to learned men of our selection. They very carefully collated all their
    work with the ancient codices in Our Vatican Library and with reliable, preserved or emended codices from
    elsewhere. Besides this, these men consulted the works of ancient and approved authors concerning the same
    sacred rites; and thus they have restored the Missal itself to the original form and rite of the holy Fathers. When this work has been gone over numerous times and further emended, after serious study and reflection, We commanded that the finished product be printed and published as soon as possible, so that all might enjoy the fruits of this labor; and thus, priests would know which prayers to use and which rites and ceremonies
    they were required to observe from now on in the celebration of Masses.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse