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Poll

If Pope Pius XII had put St. Joseph in the Canon, what would you have done?

I would accept the change and attend St. Joseph Masses
19 (61.3%)
I would not accept the change and would attend only dissident non-St. Joseph Masses
1 (3.2%)
I would accept the change and attend either St. Joseph Masses or non-St. Joseph Masses
11 (35.5%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Voting closed: February 03, 2024, 11:15:00 AM

Author Topic: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass  (Read 41020 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #180 on: February 07, 2024, 04:07:53 PM »
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  • Yes, there are legal docuмents where certain words and terms can have certain legalistic meanings other than what the word normally means, and then there are official Church docuмents that are meant to mean what they say, to be understood as they are written outside of a court of law or lawyer's office, where 'in perpetuity' and 'forever' are to be understood literally, to mean what they say by design so that there is no mistaking the message.

    Personally, I do not believe that Quo Primum could ever be legally abrogated because of what it pertains to, the eternal sacrifice. I believe PPV had that authority to bind even popes, and knew why he bound us forever, and knew well that he had the authority to do it. Many other trad priests believe(d) the same, Fr. Altenbach is on record preaching it....https://tinyurl.com/mrxc4k5n  Heck, even the Dimonds believed it, not sure but they probably don't believe it any more, but that's only because there's a whole lot more to sedeism than just a vacant chair.

    Stubborn (and others who rely on the emphatic language of Quo Primum and it's asserted "perpetuity"),

    I know you believe Paul IV's Cuм Ex Apostolatus has been abrograted. You might find this interesting: Cuм Ex has this language in it:


    Quote
    10. No one at all, therefore, may infringe this docuмent of our approbation, re-introduction, sanction, statute and derogation of wills and decrees, or by rash presumption contradict it. If anyone, however, should presume to attempt this, let him know that he is destined to incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the blessed Apostles, Peter and Paul.


    It also uses the word "perpetuity" 7 times, this time one of the more interesting:


    Quote
    6. In addition, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity We] enact, determine, decree and define:-] that if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop, even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate, or even the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy:

    (i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless;

    (ii) it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity) through the acceptance of the office, of consecration, of subsequent authority, nor through possession of administration, nor through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff, or Veneration, or obedience accorded to such by all, nor through the lapse of any period of time in the foregoing situation;

    (iii) it shall not be held as partially legitimate in any way;

    (iv) to any so promoted to be Bishops, or Archbishops, or Patriarchs, or Primates or elevated as Cardinals, or as Roman Pontiff, no authority shall have been granted, nor shall it be considered to have been so granted either in the spiritual or the temporal domain;

    (v) each and all of their words, deeds, actions and enactments, howsoever made, and anything whatsoever to which these may give rise, shall be without force and shall grant no stability whatsoever nor any right to anyone;

    (vi) those thus promoted or elevated shall be deprived automatically, and without need for any further declaration, of all dignity, position, honour, title, authority, office and power.

    https://www.catechism.cc/articles/Pope-Paul-IV-Ex-Apostolatus-Officio.htm

    Perhaps you have changed your view regarding cuм Ex? That'd be fine: I'm learning things all the time, and adjusting former erroneous opinions as i do, thank the Lord.

    That's why we (or I at least) engage in these discussions, giving reasons and supporting evidence/facts - like Magisterial statements, statements of recognized, authoritative doctors and saints, etc. Not all of it infallible, but evidence and support pro or con nonetheless.

    DR


    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #181 on: February 07, 2024, 04:54:38 PM »
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  • Father Cekada at one point made a solid point about the terms like "in perpetuity", where it simply means that it's a permanent order, would remain in force even after the pope's death (unless abrogated), vs. some temporary or time-bound edict.

    "in perpetuum" in Latin just means permanent or lasting, and not the same as the Latin "in saecula saeculorum".

    General principle of all law is that an equal cannot bind an equal, so one pope cannot bind future popes, except where it's a matter of Divine or natural law, but then it's not the pope doing the binding, but God Himself.


    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #182 on: February 07, 2024, 06:42:23 PM »
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  • Father Cekada at one point made a solid point about the terms like "in perpetuity", where it simply means that it's a permanent order, would remain in force even after the pope's death (unless abrogated), vs. some temporary or time-bound edict.

    "in perpetuum" in Latin just means permanent or lasting, and not the same as the Latin "in saecula saeculorum".

    General principle of all law is that an equal cannot bind an equal, so one pope cannot bind future popes, except where it's a matter of Divine or natural law, but then it's not the pope doing the binding, but God Himself.
    Dear Ladislaus,
    Could you please provide the quote and the source of that general principle from the docuмents of the Church? Thank you.

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #183 on: February 07, 2024, 07:21:50 PM »
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  • Both I and Ladislaus have addressed the contention that quotes must be provided for indicating the Canon can be changed. The pope has a "total fullness of supreme power" (Pastor Aeturnus) and if you want to impose limitations on that power the burden is on you to provide the authority for saying the Pope can't change the Canon.

    For example, I have provided quotes regarding the power of the Church and pope to declare "new rites" and alter existing rites (the Council of Trent and Pius XXII in Mediator Dei) and I, contrary to you, have identified authority or proof of when that power is limited: the form of the sacraments cannot be changed, particularly those given by Christ in specie - not by the Church, the pope or anyone.

    All we've seen about the "Canon can't be changed" is a quotation from the lesser authority of the CE, which merely indicates that the Canon is pure, and I believe notes that its form had been fixed for quite awhile. Those are factual observations about the Canon contained in the TLM, and not limitations on papal power - as if the CE could be a authoritative source to do such a thing. The CE is merely a reference, and in turn points to true authority that it describes . . . so where is it?

    Where is the authority limiting what is otherwise understood to be a full, complete and unlimited power (Pastor Aeturnus).

    The burden is on you, my friend, to identify the authority saying the pope cannot change the Canon.

    Dear DecemRationis,

    I agree. Before I provide this answer, could I ask couple more questions please? In your example above you quoted the Council of Trent and Pope Pius XII about the rites. Are you saying that the Canon of the Mass is in fact a rite?

    Offline jdfaber

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #184 on: February 07, 2024, 08:22:06 PM »
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  • As you can read here, in 1905 Pius X entrusted the South American College in Rome to the Society of Jesus in perpetuum. You can find the text of the Apostolic constitution here. Are we to believe that no future pope could remove this college from the governance of the Jesuits because Pius X used the words in perpetuum?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #186 on: February 07, 2024, 10:21:52 PM »
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  • Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #187 on: February 08, 2024, 05:12:45 AM »
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  • Stubborn (and others who rely on the emphatic language of Quo Primum and it's asserted "perpetuity"),

    I know you believe Paul IV's Cuм Ex Apostolatus has been abrograted. You might find this interesting: Cuм Ex has this language in it:



    It also uses the word "perpetuity" 7 times, this time one of the more interesting:


    Perhaps you have changed your view regarding cuм Ex? That'd be fine: I'm learning things all the time, and adjusting former erroneous opinions as i do, thank the Lord.

    That's why we (or I at least) engage in these discussions, giving reasons and supporting evidence/facts - like Magisterial statements, statements of recognized, authoritative doctors and saints, etc. Not all of it infallible, but evidence and support pro or con nonetheless.

    DR
    Well, my belief as regard Quo Primum I have explained and is much better explained by Fr. Altenbach. There's nothing I can do about no one wanting to spend a few minutes listening to a faithful priest voicing the mind of the Church in the matter, at the same time I do understand why sedes will not allow themselves to listen. 

    As far as Quo Primum goes it's actually moot point, because contrary to the sedes in this thread, we know with certainty that Quo Primum was never abrogated, if for no other reason than because pope Benedict XVI told us that Quo Primum was never abrogated in his Motu.

    As for cuм ex, I am not sure if anyone here has actually read the whole thing or not, but if cuм ex means what it says and is still is the law, then the Church all but ceased to exist probably within a few decades or perhaps a century or so after it went into effect. At any rate, we know that Pope St. Pius X abrogated cuм ex in his Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis. But it seems obvious to me that because of the different subject matters, it's comparing apples to water melons.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #188 on: February 08, 2024, 06:18:06 AM »
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  • General principle of all law is that an equal cannot bind an equal, so one pope cannot bind future popes, except where it's a matter of Divine or natural law, but then it's not the pope doing the binding, but God Himself.
    The underlined below, is what the sedes are missing. This matter is not a matter of one pope abrogating a law that another pope established or whether one pope can bind his successors or not.

    Foreword

    This canonical study of Fr. Raymond Dulac was written in 1972, thus at the beginning of the struggle to have the legal rights of Quo Primum recognized against those who claimed that the papal bull had been abrogated; hence the traditional Roman Mass had been abolished and could only be offered with special permission.

    VI. Is the bull valid forever?

    1. Here one principle stands out: "Par in parem potestatem non habet": Equals have no power over each other. No one, therefore, can constrain his equals. This is particularly true of the supreme power. This is essentially the same power exercised through its different holders. It is necessary to give the most careful consideration to the full import of this principle.

     If a pope (to speak only of the highest religious authority) has the power to loose what another pope by the same power has bound, then he should use this right only for the gravest possible reasons: reasons which would have prompted his predecessor to revoke his own law. Otherwise, the essence of supreme authority is itself eroded by successive contradictory commands.

    [...]

    4. Each of these characteristics taken separately, and still more when taken together, assure us that no pope can ever licitly abrogate the bull of St. Pius V, even if we admit that he can do so validly and without betraying either the Deposit of Faith or any fundamental law of the Church.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #189 on: February 08, 2024, 06:44:40 AM »
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  • The underlined below, is what the sedes are missing.

    "Sedes" aren't missing anything, but you seem to be missing your reading comprehension skills.  This affirms the principle that an equal cannot bind an equal, and then Father says that a Pope SHOULD not use this authority except for grave reasons, not that he CANNOT.

    And you still haven't addressed, other than by your pathetic and ignorant claim that the Breviary is not Liturgy, which distinction has nothing to do with the matter at hand, that Pope St. Pius V also promulgated the Breviary for in perpetuum, "forever", the same language he uses in Quo Primum.

    You've been soundly refuted but you absolutely refuse to admit that your wrong, and in other areas the more absurd are your claims the more pertinaciously you cling to them.  It's childish and pathetic.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #190 on: February 08, 2024, 06:52:24 AM »
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  • As far as Quo Primum goes it's actually moot point, because contrary to the sedes in this thread, we know with certainty that Quo Primum was never abrogated, if for no other reason than because pope Benedict XVI told us that Quo Primum was never abrogated in his Motu.

    Yes another dishonest red herring, along with a begging of the question.  This thread has nothing to do with Ratzinger but the hypothetical question of whether a legitimate Pope in principle could make an addition or change to the Canon despite Quo Primum ... and not whether Montini et al. had abrogated it.  You also beg the question that Ratzinger was even the Pope and that he was telling the truth rather than making the statement as a tactic to suck Traditional Catholics back into the Conciliar Church (as Ganswein later admitted he had intended to do).  That's why the OP used the hypothetical example of a Pius XII, to take that consideration off the table.  Whether a Pope HAS abrogated Quo Primum, or rather attempted to, is entirely beside the point.  What we're debating is whether a Pope CAN abrogate it.  But it's one distraction after another, one dishonest logical fallacy after another, in a pathetic and desperate attempt to cling to the notion that you aren't wrong.  You clearly are.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #191 on: February 08, 2024, 07:04:33 AM »
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  • "Sedes" aren't missing anything, but you seem to be missing your reading comprehension skills.  This affirms the principle that an equal cannot bind an equal, and then Father says that a Pope SHOULD not use this authority except for grave reasons, not that he CANNOT.
    You blinded yourself to the part where he said: "no pope can ever licitly abrogate the bull of St. Pius V."
    Well, it's right there and as I said already, this is the way the faithful always believed, particularly in the pre-sede era.

    Quote
    And you still haven't addressed, other than by your pathetic and ignorant claim that the Breviary is not Liturgy, which distinction has nothing to do with the matter at hand, that Pope St. Pius V also promulgated the Breviary for in perpetuum, "forever", the same language he uses in Quo Primum.
    It has everything to do with the matter at hand. You do not differentiate, but you should.

    Quote
    You've been soundly refuted but you absolutely refuse to admit that your wrong, and in other areas the more absurd are your claims the more pertinaciously you cling to them.  It's childish and pathetic.
    Although you blind yourself to the fact, you can't refute anything when you only see what you want to see and disregard the rest. As such, you've only dug yourself into a deeper hole while thinking you've refuted something.



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #192 on: February 08, 2024, 07:09:47 AM »
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  • Yes another dishonest red herring, along with a begging of the question.  This thread has nothing to do with Ratzinger but the hypothetical question of whether a legitimate Pope in principle could make an addition or change to the Canon despite Quo Primum ... and not whether Montini et al. had abrogated it.  You also beg the question that Ratzinger was even the Pope and that he was telling the truth rather than making the statement as a tactic to suck Traditional Catholics back into the Conciliar Church (as Ganswein later admitted he had intended to do).
    Only sedes beg the question as regards the status of popes, it's their foundation. And everyone knows Quo Primum was never abrogated - except you and apparently some other sedes.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Philip

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #193 on: February 08, 2024, 07:10:34 AM »
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  • Benedict XVI did not refer to Quo primum at all in SP.  It is not in the text or even in the footnotes:

    https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/la/motu_proprio/docuмents/hf_ben-xvi_motu-proprio_20070707_summorum-pontificuм.html

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #194 on: February 08, 2024, 07:14:32 AM »
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  • Benedict XVI did not refer to Quo primum at all in SP.  It is not in the text or even in the footnotes:

    https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/la/motu_proprio/docuмents/hf_ben-xvi_motu-proprio_20070707_summorum-pontificuм.html
    It's a moot point, Pope Benedict XVI said in his motu that the the true Mass was never abrogated, because the true Mass was never abrogated the law of Quo Primum was never abrogated.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse