[2Vermont]

This post came up in the Anonymous poll thread.  I thought it would make for an interesting separate thread.  Although this is focused on those who selected "controlled opposition" in the poll, I think the general question in the title could fit for anyone who isn't completely on board (including myself).

Keep in mind, I don't think "completely on board" has to mean that one believes "he should be pope" as as many as 8 people chose in the poll. Personally, I need to think about how I would answer, but maybe other answers could help me figure it out.

It would be great if we could refrain from the usual insults.

Honest question for those who selected “controlled opposition” - what would +Vigano have to do in order to gain your approval?

Openly declare that the see of St Peter has been vacant since 1958? This isn’t necessarily the best litmus test of whether someone is a sincere traditional Catholic. Get himself conditionally ordained/consecrated? There is a compelling argument to be made here.  I honestly think though that short of walking into the Vatican and physically subduing Bergoglio and hauling him out of the building, there is nothing that +Vigano could do to win some people’s approval here that he hasn’t already done.

[SeanJohnson]

I'll indulge:

Let's say for the sake of argument, that +Vigano did get conditionally consecrated.

Who would side with him today, because of this, that had reservations about him yesterday?

What would it change?

Meg will still pretend he's sympathetic to Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ.

Incredulous will still suspect he's an Opus Dei marrano.

Miser will still think heaven knows what else.

In other words, some people just want to hate.  

I say let them do it, and shake off the dust.

[Yeti]

Sometimes I wonder if the R&R people even read their own literature. They have been saying for more than half a century that the Church must judge a heretical pope, that he must be deposed, that the cardinals and bishops must warn him, and excommunicate him if he doesn't repent.

Well, here we are, we have a member of what the R&R people claim is the hierarchy, who seems to recognize a little bit of the problem and who even has gone so far as to say that Bergoglio is a heretic.

So where is the trial? Where is the excommunication? Why isn't Vigano making public appeals to all the cardinals and bishops of the Novus Ordo church to call a council and do what both of the only two theologians the R&R people can find say has to be done, to put a heretical pope and notice and depose him?

Why has nobody in the R&R crowd even mentioned this? Why hasn't Vigano mentioned it?

People have said that the vast majority of the hierarchy would side with Bergoglio. This is probably true, but then they fall under the same condemnation as Bergoglio, and are likewise outside the Church once they are all excommunicated. If a pope can be deposed by the Church, then still more can the lower clergy who are in cahoots with him be excommunicated.

The Church is not a matter of numbers. If there are only four or five cardinals who have the Faith, and no pope, then those people are the Church. Bergoglio can have thousands of bishops and a hundred cardinals, but if they are all heretics and excommunicated by the five cardinals who have the Faith, then they are nothing more than heretics dressed in red or white.

That's my answer. When Vigano says "We need all the cardinals or bishops in the Novus Ordo church to get together, warn Bergoglio, and depose him when he refuses to repent, and restore the hierarchy," that's when I'll take him seriously.

And when the R&R people start holding Vigano accountable for his failure to do this, that's when I'll take those people seriously too. This is their position, after all, let them follow it out.

[Yeti]

People will respond that my idea is useless because Bergoglio will still possess the keys to St. Peter's Basilica.

That's absurd. Lots of antipopes have possessed the keys to St. Peter's Basilica, being put in power and protected by secular authorities. The same will probably happen today. But Catholics never said, "I guess we have to adhere to this antipope because the Byzantine Emperor, who is a monothelite, wants him to be in power."

St. Peter's Basilica is a glorious building, but it's just a big pile of stone. Having the keys to that place doesn't make anyone pope.

[SeanJohnson]

Sometimes I wonder if the R&R people even read their own literature. They have been saying for more than half a century that the Church must judge a heretical pope, that he must be deposed, that the cardinals and bishops must warn him, and excommunicate him if he doesn't repent.

Well, here we are, we have a member of what the R&R people claim is the hierarchy, who seems to recognize a little bit of the problem and who even has gone so far as to say that Bergoglio is a heretic.

So where is the trial? Where is the excommunication? Why isn't Vigano making public appeals to all the cardinals and bishops of the Novus Ordo church to call a council and do what both of the only two theologians the R&R people can find say has to be done, to put a heretical pope and notice and depose him?

Why has nobody in the R&R crowd even mentioned this? Why hasn't Vigano mentioned it?

People have said that the vast majority of the hierarchy would side with Bergoglio. This is probably true, but then they fall under the same condemnation as Bergoglio, and are likewise outside the Church once they are all excommunicated. If a pope can be deposed by the Church, then still more can the lower clergy who are in cahoots with him be excommunicated.

The Church is not a matter of numbers. If there are only four or five cardinals who have the Faith, and no pope, then those people are the Church. Bergoglio can have thousands of bishops and a hundred cardinals, but if they are all heretics and excommunicated by the five cardinals who have the Faith, then they are nothing more than heretics dressed in red or white.

That's my answer. When Vigano says "We need all the cardinals or bishops in the Novus Ordo church to get together, warn Bergoglio, and depose him when he refuses to repent, and restore the hierarchy," that's when I'll take him seriously.

And when the R&R people start holding Vigano accountable for his failure to do this, that's when I'll take those people seriously too. This is their position, after all, let them follow it out.

Umm, prescinding from commenting on all the other errors and mischaracterizations in your post, Vigano has no jurisdiction to excommunicate anyone.

And he's obviously trying to influence the rest of the Church in the very direction you want him to (which is why MM pulled the plug on him).

[Ladislaus]

People will respond that my idea is useless because Bergoglio will still possess the keys to St. Peter's Basilica.

What do you mean?  Nothing will actually change until God intervenes to fix this mess.  We have 3 NO hierarchs (though without any jurisdiction) now saying that Bergoglio isn't the Pope.  OK, so, what now?  Of the 134 voting Cardinals, only 2 of them had the courage to even express some weakly-worded "uncertainties" or "hesitations" to Jorge.

So if by "useless" you mean whether it'll have some practical effect toward resolving the Church crisis, then everything we post here, everything any Trad has said from the pulpit, and everything +Vigano said is "useless".

But for the sake of the Catholic faithful who remain, the words of a +Vigano help strengthen us and give us confidence and encourage us in this horrific crisis.  They also help give us clarity about what's happened to the Church and why we should not despair of Our Lord's promises to the Church, and jump off the deep end into Eastern Orthodoxy or something.  That's the purpose they serve.  Even long-time sedevacantists are finding strength and renewed resolve in +Vigano's messages.  +Vigano gives us increased hope.

If we liken this to a long battle, we've been fighting for decades now and getting pummeled and on the verge of getting crushed, vastly outnumbered and outgunned.  +Vigano is like the cavalry showing up.  Yeah, OK, he's a bit late showing up and we could have used him earlier, but it was God's will that he not be converted to Tradition until he was most needed, as the troops in the trenches are on the verge of despair.  As the cavalry arrives, there's new hope given to the troops on the front line.  Right now, that cavalry isn't enough to turn the tide, but it gives us hope that more might be coming and more on the way, giving us the strength to persevere a bit longer.  Even though we're still small in numbers and still outgunned overall, +Vigano is bringing a mighty big gun, a large bazooka, to the party, and just the sight of it is striking fear into the hearts of the enemy, and it's a morale boost for the troops in the trenches.

This is a perfect analogy to what's going on.  Some of the troops are complaining about his late arrival, "Where have you been?" while the rest of us are welcoming him since we need the help and realize that his late arrival is part of the General's plans, those of Our Lord Himself, and He knows what He's doing.

[Yeti]

Umm, prescinding from commenting on all the other errors and mischaracterizations in your post, Vigano has no jurisdiction to excommunicate anyone.

.

I didn't say Vigano had to do anything that required jurisdiction. Here's what I said:

So where is the trial? Where is the excommunication? Why isn't Vigano making public appeals to all the cardinals and bishops of the Novus Ordo church to call a council and do what both of the only two theologians the R&R people can find say has to be done, to put a heretical pope and notice and depose him?

Sean:
And he's obviously trying to influence the rest of the Church in the very direction you want him to (which is why MM pulled the plug on him).

This is not obvious at all. I certainly didn't see anything of that nature in this latest statement of his.

Vigano is like Nostradamus. People can find anything they want to find in his writings, whether it's there or not.

[Quo vadis Domine]

.

I didn't say Vigano had to do anything that required jurisdiction. Here's what I said:


This is not obvious at all. I certainly didn't see anything of that nature in this latest statement of his.

Vigano is like Nostradamus. People can find anything they want to find in his writings, whether it's there or not.

😂😂😂 

[Ladislaus]

If we liken this to a long battle, we've been fighting for decades now and getting pummeled and on the verge of getting crushed, vastly outnumbered and outgunned.  +Vigano is like the cavalry showing up.  Yeah, OK, he's a bit late showing up and we could have used him earlier, but it was God's will that he not be converted to Tradition until he was most needed, as the troops in the trenches are on the verge of despair.  As the cavalry arrives, there's new hope given to the troops on the front line.  Right now, that cavalry isn't enough to turn the tide, but it gives us hope that more might be coming and more on the way, giving us the strength to persevere a bit longer.  Even though we're still small in numbers and still outgunned overall, +Vigano is bringing a mighty big gun, a large bazooka, to the party, and just the sight of it is striking fear into the hearts of the enemy, and it's a morale boost for the troops in the trenches.

This is a perfect analogy to what's going on.  Some of the troops are complaining about his late arrival, "Where have you been?" while the rest of us are welcoming him since we need the help and realize that his late arrival is part of the General's plans, those of Our Lord Himself, and He knows what He's doing.

+Vigano is like Theoden in this scene.  For a long time he was under the spell (power) of the Power of Darkness, and he was exorcised.  Next we hope for the scene that begins at the 2:05 mark in this clip.


And then eventually on the Three Days of Darkness, the forces of the "Ghost Army" (Dead Men of Dunharrow) arrive to annihilate the enemy.

[Meg]

That's my answer. When Vigano says "We need all the cardinals or bishops in the Novus Ordo church to get together, warn Bergoglio, and depose him when he refuses to repent, and restore the hierarchy," that's when I'll take him seriously.

And when the R&R people start holding Vigano accountable for his failure to do this, that's when I'll take those people seriously too. This is their position, after all, let them follow it out.

I too would like someone, even Vigano, to tell all of the bishops and cardinals that they need to hold some sort of synod or council to address Francis' heresies, and depose him if he doesn't repent. Or at least tell all of the Catholic Faithful not to follow him. I don't see it happening that enough bishops and cardinals could ever be persuaded to do this, but it happened at the Council of Nicaea, though most of the hierarchy were Arians. A miracle, really.

Though I don't agree with some of his wackier views, Br. Bugnolo, a benevacantist, is hoping that a council will be called to address the heresies of Francis. This really would be doing something practical about the problem. But then the SSPX or Resistance leadership don't seem interested in this path at all. They just want to provide the sacraments, and that's okay, but still.

We already know the horrible heresies of Francis and his predecessors. Do we really need Vigano to tell us that? It's a longshot, but the only real way out of the Crisis is Divine intervention, but that could happen through a council, called by bishops and cardinals, and maybe with the help from the laity.

[2Vermont]

I guess a question I have about him going forward is: why would he be any different than any other Trad bishop (assuming he is consecrated in the Old Rite)? 

Why should we look to him for "hope"? Wouldn't he just be another bishop gone "Trad"?  Why would any of these other Novus Ordo bishops/cardinals, etc give one hoot what he says? And if they ignore him, what would happen to the other "faithful"?  Wouldn't they, at best, just become "Trad" and possibly join a "Trad" group?  How does any of this do more than just increase the number of Trads? How does he solve the Crisis? 

I guess I'm trying to look ahead here, and I'm coming up empty.

Why do we look to the Novus Ordo church to solve the Crisis?

[Yeti]

I guess a question I have about him going forward is: why would he be any different than any other Trad bishop (assuming he is consecrated in the Old Rite)? 

Why should we look to him for "hope"? Wouldn't he just be another bishop gone "Trad"?  Why would any of these other Novus Ordo bishops/cardinals, etc give one hoot what he says? And if they ignore him, what would happen to the other "faithful"?  Wouldn't they, at best, just become "Trad" and possibly join a "Trad" group?  How does any of this do more than just increase the number of Trads? How does he solve the Crisis? 

I guess I'm trying to look ahead here, and I'm coming up empty.

.

If Vigano could gather the remaining prelates of the Novus Ordo church (assuming there are any), they could accept episcopal consecration, renounce their errors, and then they would be in a position to elect a pope. At least, this is according to the R&R position.

This would be different because the R&R group as well as the conservative Novus Ordos would go along with it because they follow people in the new church who they think have the Faith. Sedevacantists would also follow as well.

Basically, they would most likely unite under them everyone who still actually believes in the Faith, and this scenario would be compatible with virtually every point of view in the trad world.

After denouncing Bergoglio as a heretic, they could then elect a true pope that basically all trads would follow. This pope could then excommunicate the Novus Ordo sect and all its adherents, and whoever does not follow this true pope would then be the member of a non-Catholic sect, and formally outside the Church. They would be equivalent to protestants who followed Martin Luther, after he was excommunicated.

The Church would then be restored and back to normal. We wouldn't have the fancy buildings we used to have, but we don't need those.

This is all pretty speculative, obviously.

[2Vermont]

.

If Vigano could gather the remaining prelates of the Novus Ordo church (assuming there are any), they could accept episcopal consecration, renounce their errors, and then they would be in a position to elect a pope. At least, this is according to the R&R position.

This would be different because the R&R group as well as the conservative Novus Ordos would go along with it because they follow people in the new church who they think have the Faith. Sedevacantists would also follow as well.

Basically, they would most likely unite under them everyone who still actually believes in the Faith, and this scenario would be compatible with virtually every point of view in the trad world.

After denouncing Bergoglio as a heretic, they could then elect a true pope that basically all trads would follow. This pope could then excommunicate the Novus Ordo sect and all its adherents, and whoever does not follow this true pope would then be the member of a non-Catholic sect, and formally outside the Church. They would be equivalent to protestants who followed Martin Luther, after he was excommunicated.

The Church would then be restored and back to normal. We wouldn't have the fancy buildings we used to have, but we don't need those.

This is all pretty speculative, obviously.

OK.  But it would seem to me that it would be absolutely necessary that this isn't just a condemnation of Bergoglio, but of ALL the post Vatican II popes and Vatican II.  Otherwise, I don't see all Trads agreeing on the new pope.

[Marulus Fidelis]

OK.  But it would seem to me that it would be absolutely necessary that this isn't just a condemnation of Bergoglio, but of ALL the post Vatican II popes and Vatican II.  Otherwise, I don't see all Trads agreeing on the new pope.

LOL. All trads will never agree on a new pope because trads disagree on a lot of things. Sure, a charismatic leader could convince quite a few, but definitely not all groups.

[dxcat40]

Vigano is a lot like Trump and says whatever alienated Catholics would like to hear, but has very little of substance to show for himself and it gets even worse if you look into his history. Much of the rest of the arguments are about as useful as Siri Theory: they're not. Endless speculation, new divisions and ever-shifting goal posts while Francis continues his campaign without any real opposition. Trads splitting from one another, arguing on the Internet and mouthing support for the open enemies of the West really only helps the Revolution's attempts to discredit and undermine what is left of the Catholic Church's authority in the world.