Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6]

Author Topic: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?  (Read 3155 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Last Tradhican

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6293
  • Reputation: +3330/-1939
  • Gender: Male
Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
« Reply #75 on: June 03, 2020, 09:13:56 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: 2Vermont on June 03, 2020, 07:41:45 PM


    Well that response seemed rude and unnecessary.  It's more likely that it just never came up.  I am surprised and happy to see that what you've provided comes from Frs. Radecki.  I did not know this was an issue.  
    I said : "Likely your priests were born and raised traditionalist and therefore could care less what the Novus Ordo does. Just like I do not know the names of any movie stars in the last 20 years. Who cares?"

    Maybe you understood me to mean who cares what your priests thought or knew? What I meant was not that, but who cares about what the Novus Ordo is doing, it has no effect on us. It is like I not knowing who the famous movie stars are today, I do not know, nor do I care.

    Hope that clears it up. 

    God Bless
    Logged

    Offline Aristotl

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 108
    • Reputation: +20/-20
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #76 on: June 03, 2020, 09:21:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • at book is an excellent read one of the best there is. If you get a chance check out the Mediator Dei Extended Version from Catholic Research Institute. Amazing to see what Pope Pius XII was dealing with in 1947. How in less than 20 years what would happen to the Church.
    Logged

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11303
    • Reputation: +6282/-1087
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #77 on: June 04, 2020, 05:43:26 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on June 03, 2020, 09:13:56 PM
    I said : "Likely your priests were born and raised traditionalist and therefore could care less what the Novus Ordo does. Just like I do not know the names of any movie stars in the last 20 years. Who cares?"

    Maybe you understood me to mean who cares what your priests thought or knew? What I meant was not that, but who cares about what the Novus Ordo is doing, it has no effect on us. It is like I not knowing who the famous movie stars are today, I do not know, nor do I care.

    Hope that clears it up.

    God Bless
    Yes, that does clear it up.  That is how I took it.  I apologize.  I should have realized that that's not typical of you.

    Anyway, that wouldn't be the case.  My priests have been CMRI, one of the Nine and one of the three who joined the Nine.  They definitely care about what is going on and certainly talk about the changes.  The Anointing of the Sick has never come up.

    Thank you for bringing it to me attention.
    Logged

    Offline Kolar

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 90
    • Reputation: +60/-25
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #78 on: June 04, 2020, 06:49:23 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Archbishop Lefebvre doubted that the new rite of ordination was valid and conditionally ordained priests that wanted to work with the SSPX. Fr. Ronald Ringrose was ordained in the 60s shortly after the new rite began. The bishop who ordained him was certainly a valid bishop. Archbishop Lefebvre conditionally ordained him.
    Canon Hesse believed that the new rite of ordination was valid. He was ordained in the new rite and never conditionally ordained.
    They are both highly educated men. Thus, the question seems to be disputable. One day the Church may have to decide.
    Pope Pius XII's definition of the matter and form of ordination is curious because it only applies to the Roman rite. To be infallible a definition must be for the whole Church. Can the Pope make an infallible definition for only one rite? That is not what Vatican I said.
    Logged

    Offline Marie Teresa

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 274
    • Reputation: +196/-4
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #79 on: June 04, 2020, 07:17:47 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Kolar on June 04, 2020, 06:49:23 AM
    Fr. Ronald Ringrose was ordained in the 60s shortly after the new rite began.
    .
    Just for the record, he was ordained in 1979.  
    Logged

    Offline MiserereMei

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 209
    • Reputation: +124/-23
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #80 on: June 04, 2020, 09:22:13 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Kolar on June 04, 2020, 06:49:23 AM
    Archbishop Lefebvre doubted that the new rite of ordination was valid and conditionally ordained priests that wanted to work with the SSPX. Fr. Ronald Ringrose was ordained in the 60s shortly after the new rite began. The bishop who ordained him was certainly a valid bishop. Archbishop Lefebvre conditionally ordained him.
    Canon Hesse believed that the new rite of ordination was valid. He was ordained in the new rite and never conditionally ordained.
    They are both highly educated men. Thus, the question seems to be disputable. One day the Church may have to decide.
    Pope Pius XII's definition of the matter and form of ordination is curious because it only applies to the Roman rite. To be infallible a definition must be for the whole Church. Can the Pope make an infallible definition for only one rite? That is not what Vatican I said.
    Rites are not dogmatic so infalibility does not apply here. Popes though can set laws and similar matters binding to all faithful and here's where the rites belong (of course following tradition, no innovations).
    Logged

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 45968
    • Reputation: +27078/-5003
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #81 on: June 04, 2020, 10:53:09 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
    • Quote from: MiserereMei on June 04, 2020, 09:22:13 AM
    Rites are not dogmatic so infalibility does not apply here. Popes though can set laws and similar matters binding to all faithful and here's where the rites belong (of course following tradition, no innovations).

    Nonsense, for the Church's Universal Discipline is also infallible.  It is completely incompatible with the indefectibility of the Church's mission to claim that the Church can promulgate a Sacramental Rite of doubtful validity.  And this is not subject to our private judgment that these Rites "follow tradition".  Trent dogmatically condemned the proposition that the Rites in use by the Catholic Church can be incitements to impiety.  If the Church's Apostolic Orders (episcopal consecration) were to become invalid, that directly undermine's the Church's indefectibility of mission and the Apostolic succession.

    What's wrong with everyone, man?  You're losing your Catholic bearings in desperate support of the R&R position.

    If someone holds these Rites to be in doubt, then one must simultaneously hold the legitimacy of the Popes who promulgated them to be in doubt ... as in fact Archbishop Lefebvre did.
    Logged

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 45968
    • Reputation: +27078/-5003
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #82 on: June 04, 2020, 10:54:46 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Marie Teresa on June 04, 2020, 07:17:47 AM
    .
    Just for the record, he was ordained in 1979.  

    Fr. Ringrose was conditionally ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre.  He told met this himself.
    Logged

    Offline MiserereMei

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 209
    • Reputation: +124/-23
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #83 on: June 04, 2020, 02:23:23 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 04, 2020, 10:53:09 AM
    Nonsense, for the Church's Universal Discipline is also infallible.  It is completely incompatible with the indefectibility of the Church's mission to claim that the Church can promulgate a Sacramental Rite of doubtful validity.  And this is not subject to our private judgment that these Rites "follow tradition".  Trent dogmatically condemned the proposition that the Rites in use by the Catholic Church can be incitements to impiety.  If the Church's Apostolic Orders (episcopal consecration) were to become invalid, that directly undermine's the Church's indefectibility of mission and the Apostolic succession.

    What's wrong with everyone, man?  You're losing your Catholic bearings in desperate support of the R&R position.

    If someone holds these Rites to be in doubt, then one must simultaneously hold the legitimacy of the Popes who promulgated them to be in doubt ... as in fact Archbishop Lefebvre did.
    I'm sorry if I conveyed the wrong message. English is not my first language. What I meant in my response to Kolar was that, by papal disposition, specific words in a rite may be different for a specific part of the Church (e.g. Latin church vs Oriental church) but have the same meaning and intention, not affecting infallibility. Defining dogmas is not necessarily about the use of specific words but of principles and doctrine (e.g. The Assumption of Our Lady).
    Logged

    Offline Marie Teresa

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 274
    • Reputation: +196/-4
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #84 on: June 04, 2020, 05:14:18 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 04, 2020, 10:54:46 AM
    Fr. Ringrose was conditionally ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre.  He told met this himself.
    .
    I'm well aware of that.  I was simply correcting the error in the thread that "Fr. Ronald Ringrose was ordained in the 60s shortly after the new rite began."   His Novus Ordo ordination was in 1979, not in the 1960s.  Which also has some bearing on the point the poster was making, even if his overall point is still valid.
    Logged

    Offline Bataar

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 185
    • Reputation: +76/-36
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #85 on: June 17, 2020, 03:54:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • So a while back, I emailed this question to the FSSP and today I received an answer from a vocations director there. I won't mention names and he admits he's not a canon lawyer or even a priest, but this is the response I received:

    "In the matter of Ordination, the laying on of the hands of the Bishop constitutes the matter of the sacrament.  The form that follows has been modified from time to time, and is incidental to the ceremony and sacrament.  Hence, as long as the succession of the apostles is carried forward by the laying on of hands, the Ordination is proper, valid and full.  Our human desire for ceremony and solemnity has most likely brought about the beautiful and consequential forms of our liturgies – and cultural tastes have also dictated their amplification and their simplification.

    Hence, there are no grounds to believe that this Pope or that Pope, this Bishop or that Bishop, or this Priest or that Priest, has not been validly ordained, unless the MATTER of the sacrament was not performed properly.  In most cases there are numerous witnesses, both clergy and laity, who have observed and witnessed the ceremony, and can vouch for the proper matter being conferred on the ordination."

    I must admit that this doesn't seem right to me either. It almost sound like the form of a sacrament is irrelevant. Maybe that's not what he met, but that's what it sounds like.
    Logged
    Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6]
    « previous next »