Author Topic: Creation of the Church? (Read 660 times)

AnthonyPadua · « **on:** June 07, 2024, 05:45:20 PM »

The feast of the Sacred Heart got me thinking. The Church is said to have been born on Pentecost, however the blood and water which came out of our Lord's Heart is also said to be the creation of the Church. I've heard some say that the Body of Christ was made on Pentecost and the Soul of the Church at the piercing. I am unsure about these things, anyone info on this would be appreciated.

I have also heard that the Blessed Virgin Mary was a member of the Soul of the Church at this time, however there is a problem here.

Quote

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.

How can our Lady have the soul of the Church (which is the Holy Ghost) before the creation of the Body of Christ?

Nadir · « **Reply #1 on:** June 08, 2024, 06:19:49 AM »

Just a few random thoughts which may, or may not, be helpful.

Firstly, I wonder where you get the idea that the Body and soul of the Church can ever
be separated.

We know that Church IS the Body of Christ.
We also know that the Body of Jesus Christ was formed in the virginal womb of Mary His Mother upon the visit by Angel Gabriel who declared to her
Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus.
When Mary consented: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word, the Body of Christ entered her womb by the power of the Holy Spirit.

So being the Mother of Jesus, and Jesus is never separated from the Father or the Holy Spirit, it follows that She is Mother of the Church.

Jesus had to offer His Body for the salvation of all humanity, then having prepared his Apostles, return to His Father in Heaven, before the Holy Spirit could come to quicken the embryonic Church. So yes. The birth of the Church is Pentecost. Previous to the birth the Church did exist in an embryonic state, cowering in fear of the Jєωs, but when the Holy Spirit came the true growth of the Church began. (Birth is always preceded by a pregnant state.)

AnthonyPadua · « **Reply #2 on:** June 09, 2024, 06:28:30 AM »

Quote from: Nadir on June 08, 2024, 06:19:49 AM

Just a few random thoughts which may, or may not, be helpful.

Firstly, I wonder where you get the idea that the Body and soul of the Church can ever
be separated.

We know that Church IS the Body of Christ.
We also know that the Body of Jesus Christ was formed in the virginal womb of Mary His Mother upon the visit by Angel Gabriel who declared to her
Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus.
When Mary consented: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word, the Body of Christ entered her womb by the power of the Holy Spirit.

So being the Mother of Jesus, and Jesus is never separated from the Father or the Holy Spirit, it follows that She is Mother of the Church.

Jesus had to offer His Body for the salvation of all humanity, then having prepared his Apostles, return to His Father in Heaven, before the Holy Spirit could come to quicken the embryonic Church. So yes. The birth of the Church is Pentecost. Previous to the birth the Church did exist in an embryonic state, cowering in fear of the Jєωs, but when the Holy Spirit came the true growth of the Church began. (Birth is always preceded by a pregnant state.)

Ok thanks for the response. I don't think I worded my questions very well. So I will ask some more things

In regards to Pope Pius XII

Quote

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 22), June 29, 1943.

Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith

How does this apply to the Mother of the Church the Blessed Virgin Mary?

Also the reason I mentioned the soul of the Church earlier is due to someone else mentioning it (possibly believing that someone can be united to the soul of the Church without being in the Body of the Church - which I why I made that other quote in the OP).

Also what does the Church or the Saints say about the Blood and Water that came from the Heart of our Lord Christ?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #3 on:** June 09, 2024, 07:02:41 AM »

As you know, “soul of the Church” terminology has been in vogue for some time. Msgr. Fenton demonstrated well how that concept is erroneous.

Certainly the hierarchy was already in place after Out Lord appointed St. Peter the Pope and consecrated the Apostles as bishops. Also, He issued the mandate for the Sacrament of Baptism after His Resurrection. I think the notion that the Church was born on Pentecost is a bit imprecise. Perhaps the analogy might be between conception and birth, where the baby, already alive, becomes manifest. Babies don’t come into existence at birth but merely come out into the world for all to see.

moneil · « **Reply #4 on:** June 09, 2024, 09:44:08 AM »

Quote from: AnthonyPadua on June 09, 2024, 06:28:30 AM

Also what does the Church or the Saints say about the Blood and Water that came from the Heart of our Lord Christ?

For the Feast of the Sacred Heart, at the Gospel (St. John 19:31-37) passage "...there came out blood and water",
my 1958 St. Andrew's Daily Missal has this footnote: "The blood is a symbol of the Eucharist, the water of Baptism." For Sunday's and some feasts there is a short prayer before the proper's of the Mass. For the Mass on the Feast of the Sacred Heart the prayer is:
In You is our trust, O Sacred Heart of Jesus, opened by the centurion's spear! You are the inexhaustible source of life whence flows, as of old from Moses's rock, the water of baptism and the Blood of the Eucharist from which was born the Church, Your Spouse and our mother."

Stubborn · « **Reply #5 on:** June 09, 2024, 10:02:01 AM »

Snip from one of Fr. Wathen's sermons where he describes the birth/beginnings of the Church, but he never mentions the "soul of the Church"....

"The Acts of the Apostles was written to describe the beginnings of the Church [...] The Church, which celebrates it's birthday on Pentecost, comes forth as an infant from the side of the crucified Christ. And like an infant, it is complete, it wants for nothing that we recognize as the essentials of the faith, nor does it want for anything with respect to it's power or jurisdiction. But, it is rudimentary in all that it possesses, even it's doctrine has gradually to be developed - that is, to be enunciated and rendered into a theological format.

The moral law which Christ had taught the Apostles will be developed also, which is to say that the Spirit of Christ will take the Ten Commandments and refine and expand them so that now the Christian morality is the most noble concept that the world has ever known for human behavior.

Likewise, the Liturgical Rite, the Holy Mass and the other sacraments, which have been given to us by Christ, are hardly more than basic direction that Christ gave the twelve Apostles. It will be for them and their successors to develop the rituals that surround these seven signs..."

Author Topic: Creation of the Church? (Read 660 times)

AnthonyPadua

Creation of the Church?

Nadir

Re: Creation of the Church?

AnthonyPadua

Re: Creation of the Church?

Ladislaus

Re: Creation of the Church?

moneil

Re: Creation of the Church?

Stubborn

Re: Creation of the Church?