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Author Topic: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?  (Read 3157 times)

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Offline Geremia

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Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
« Reply #60 on: May 23, 2020, 07:00:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on May 23, 2020, 04:24:13 PM
    I wouldn’t call it a doubt but straight-up invalidity.  Plenty of first-hand stories I’ve heard where new-priests “absolved” sins using invalid words:
    1.  “The Church absolves you...”
    2.  “Christ absolves you...”
    3.  “God forgives you...”
    .
    All of these are straight invalid.  Better watch out what they say!
    Yes, anything that doesn't have "I absolve thee" is invalid, because Jesus said "Whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth" etc. (Mt. 16:19).
    III q. 84 a. 3 ad 1
    Quote
    in giving sacramental absolution it would not suffice to say: "May Almighty God have mercy on thee," or: "May God grant thee absolution and forgiveness," because by such words the priest does not signify the giving of absolution, but prays that it may be given.
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    Offline BTNYC

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #61 on: May 23, 2020, 10:09:19 PM »
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    • I know many reject his thesis, but here's Fr. Hesse's take on it (also at 0:54 he touches on the odd - but still valid - forms of absolution in some of the Eastern Rites - valid for their rites, of course, but not the Latin Rite):



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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #62 on: May 24, 2020, 06:31:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on May 23, 2020, 07:00:30 PM
    Yes, anything that doesn't have "I absolve thee" is invalid, because Jesus said "Whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth" etc. (Mt. 16:19).
    Doesn't matter if a NO priest said the right words/form if he was ordained in the New Rite ....especially if he was ordained in the New Rite by a bishop that was consecrated in the New Rite.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #63 on: May 24, 2020, 12:21:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on May 23, 2020, 07:00:30 PM
    Yes, anything that doesn't have "I absolve thee" is invalid, because Jesus said "Whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth" etc. (Mt. 16:19).
    The official English form in the N.O. includes "I absolve you".

    But some of the Eastern Catholic forms do not. Many sacraments in Eastern Catholic churches use a declarative form, eg "You are absolved".

    Here is St. John Chrysostom (Instruction on Baptism, 11, p.165; similar text appears in Instruction 2, p53)
    Quote
    For this reason, when the priest is baptizing, he does not say: "I baptize so-and-so," but: "So-and-so is baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit". In this way he shows that it is not he who baptizes but those whose names have been invoked.
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #64 on: May 30, 2020, 03:40:30 PM »
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    • Bataar:  in regards to Bishop Olmstead.  Bishop Moreano had the Indult, and he went bankrupt not to mention his prostitute ring.  Bishop Olmstead comes in and has the Indult/insult mass of FSSP come.  He builds the building and brings in Fr. Terra from CA.  At this time priests across the nation were being shown the door if they did not go more New Order/modern.  Then came Fr. Walker.

    I know for a fact that all dioceses serve the Gov't and state.  All dioceses do the insult Christ with their New Order.  How can FSSP anti up to the dioceses!?  Oh can FSSP claim to be a different entity, when they come under the dioceses?

    All dioceses anti up to Catholic Charities and so many programs of the Federal Gov't that support abortion and you name it, even the perverts and Democrats.  All dioceses are not of God to save souls, but set up for money, destruction. Proof?  All programs serve the agenda of the Feds. (communism)

    Now why would Bishop Olmstead be so innocent. The dioceses are with secret societies.  Phoenix had Fr. Rudy mysteriously put away, under Bishop O'Brien.

    We may speak of perverts in the New Order, but you seldom hear of mysterious deaths.  Fr. Florese (sp) is just another one who died under mysterious ways under O'Brien.

    People think Bishop Olmstead is so different and holier than though.  Lifesite news made him look good.  When I scolded them, they would not allow me to reply to their forum.  Human Life International dressed him up as well, and they too, took no more of my emails.  

    Any one who sees any New Order Bishop/dioceses as ok, they best wake up!  They can not be trusted at all!
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    Offline Aristotl

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #65 on: May 31, 2020, 07:13:20 AM »
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    • I seriously question the validity of the greater majority of Novus Ordo Bishops.  The rite of Consecration was changed in 1978. The Sacred Priesthood was changed in 1963.
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #66 on: June 03, 2020, 11:31:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Aristotl on May 31, 2020, 07:13:20 AM
    The rite of Consecration was changed in 1978. The Sacred Priesthood was changed in 1963.
    Even the primary end of marriage was redefined at Vatican II and the 1983 Code.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #67 on: June 03, 2020, 04:06:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Aristotl on May 31, 2020, 07:13:20 AM

    I seriously question the validity of the greater majority of Novus Ordo Bishops.  The rite of Consecration was changed in 1978  1968. The Sacrament of Ordination of the Sacred Priesthood was changed in 1963 1968.
    There, that's better.

    Additionally, the sacrament of Extreme Unction was eliminated in 1968, it no longer exists in the Novus Ordo church.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #68 on: June 03, 2020, 04:12:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on June 03, 2020, 04:06:54 PM
    There, that's better.

    Additionally, the sacrament of Extreme Unction was eliminated in 1968, it no longer exists in the Novus Ordo church.
    I thought they call it the "Anointing of the Sick" now.
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    Offline Matto

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #69 on: June 03, 2020, 04:21:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on June 03, 2020, 04:12:06 PM
    I thought they call it the "Anointing of the Sick" now.

    The way I understand it, they changed it like they changed confirmation, now call it "anointing of the sick," give it out, and in my experience, some priests at least, they no longer hear confessions before giving it out.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #70 on: June 03, 2020, 04:25:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on June 03, 2020, 04:12:06 PM
    I thought they call it the "Anointing of the Sick" now.
    Anointing of the sick is not the Sacrament of Extreme Unction, it is just a blessing. The Novus Ordo seniors still call it Extreme Unction, not knowing that it is just a blessing.  

    It is like they call Log Cabin Maple syrup, when it is just corn syrup, there is no maple syruo in it.  There is no Extreme Unction in it, the Novus Ordo church.   
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #71 on: June 03, 2020, 04:45:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on June 03, 2020, 04:25:33 PM
    Anointing of the sick is not the Sacrament of Extreme Unction, it is just a blessing. The Novus Ordo seniors still call it Extreme Unction, not knowing that it is just a blessing.  

    It is like they call Log Cabin Maple syrup, when it is just corn syrup, there is no maple syruo in it.  There is no Extreme Unction in it, the Novus Ordo church.  
    I have never heard a traditional Catholic priest say that the Novus Ordo also changed the Sacrament of Extreme Unction to merely a blessing.  The issue is the man giving it who calls himself a priest.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #72 on: June 03, 2020, 06:44:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on June 03, 2020, 04:45:54 PM
    I have never heard a traditional Catholic priest say that the Novus Ordo also changed the Sacrament of Extreme Unction to merely a blessing.  The issue is the man giving it who calls himself a priest.
    Likely your priests were born and raised traditionalist and therefore could care less what the Novus Ordo does. Just like I do not know the names of any movie stars in the last 20 years. Who cares?

    From the book - What Has Happened to the Catholic Church, by Fr. F Radecki and Fr. D. Radecki
    Online version here - https://archive.org/stream/WhatHasHappenedToTheCathoRadeckiFr.FranciscoCMRI5025/What%20has%20happened%20to%20the%20Catho%20-%20Radecki%2C%20Fr.%20Francisco%2C%20CMRI%20%26_5025_djvu.txt

    “Anointing of the Sick”

    Perhaps the most tragic and treacherous alteration in the Sacraments has occurred with Extreme Unction. It simply does not
    exist in the new church!     “Anointing of the Sick”, has replaced Extreme Unction, thus depriving millions of the faithful the
    numerous benefits of the Sacrament. Vatican II orchestrated this aberration, ordering that,


    ‘. . .the prayers accompanying the rite of anointing are to be revised.


    Paul VI issued an Apostolic Constitution (On the Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick) in 1972, changing the matter and form of
    this Sacrament.     The new rite became mandatory on January 1, 1974.


    “No longer is the sacrament called ‘Extreme Unction’ or ‘Last Anointing’; it is the Anointing and the pastoral care of the
    sick:


    “Thus, today, we see that the sacrament is the sacrament for the sick. No longer is the point of death a condition for its
    reception; the revised ritual teaches us the meaning of the sacrament. We read in the blessing of oil: May your blessing come
    upon all who are anointed with this oil, that they may be freed from pain and illness and made well again in body, mind, and


    The “Anointing of the Sick” is meant for the sick and their recovery, but not necessarily for the dying. The American bishops
    issued recent guidelines expressing that the illness need not be physical, but could be an emotional or spiritual crisis.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #73 on: June 03, 2020, 07:41:45 PM »
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    • Well that response seemed rude and unnecessary.  It's more likely that it just never came up.  I am surprised and happy to see that what you've provided comes from Frs. Radecki.  I did not know this was an issue.  
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #74 on: June 03, 2020, 09:03:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on June 03, 2020, 07:41:45 PM
    Well that response seemed rude and unnecessary.  It's more likely that it just never came up.  
    It was not meant to be rude and unnecessary, I'm surprised that you took it that way. I do not see it.

    The Fr's Radecki book was given to me by a sedevacantes (I didn't even know what that was then) in 1995, when I had just returned to the Church like three weeks. He asked me if I was a Catholic, then he asked me if I went to mass. I hesitated in my response and told him that I had just started to go to mass, but that it was rather strange, but I didn't know anything. You see, I had not ever gone to a Novus Ordo mass, having left the Church in 1966. He then gave me the Radecki book, a Brown Scapular with a booklet explaining what it was, a Rosary and a sheet explaining it. I began learning what had happened to the Church from the Radecki book and I learned the faith from all the books in its bibliography. I bought many of them and read them all. I knew NOTHING about the faith then and yet if you look at my library today of like $5000 worth of Catholic books, there are only three Novus Ordo conservative books, and I read like 10 pages of each and didn't go further. I credit God for providing me with the library, and for sending me the Radecki book and its extensive bibliography. That bibliography is the root of all of the other books I have today
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