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Author Topic: meatless Fridays & other people  (Read 2170 times)

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Offline Soubirous

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meatless Fridays & other people
« on: May 21, 2024, 07:11:59 PM »
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  • Putting this out there to see what folks here think/do. Say you have one of these scenarios or something similar:

    a) You take an apostate Catholic out to lunch (this is a close relative) saying you'll pay. It's a Friday. This person knows the precepts of the Church from childhood but orders a meat entree anyway out of habit.

    b) A Protestant friend asks you to bring back (and fronts you the cash for) a few pounds of really good barbecue since you're traveling anyway near a town that's known for really good barbecue. Given the timing, odds are that this will get eaten on a Friday.

    Both of these people know about your traditional Catholic dietary habits, have commented that these are "weird", but will ask about and listen to catechesis respectfully enough.

    I figure that a basic principle is not to enable other peoples' sins even if they don't think they're sinning. Where's the balance between orthodoxy without being pharasaical and charity without falling off the cliff into "accompaniment"?

    Thanks!
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus


    Offline pnw1994

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #1 on: May 21, 2024, 07:19:08 PM »
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  • I can’t really comment on the first situation.

    As to the second situation, I’m fairly certain that the laws of fast and abstinence only bind members of the Church, so I don’t see this being an issue as long as you didn’t eat the meat? Others may have a more learned opinion than I.
    God cannot leave a soul to swim
    That has not first abandoned Him.


    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #2 on: May 21, 2024, 07:32:17 PM »
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  • a) You take an apostate Catholic out to lunch (this is a close relative) saying you'll pay. It's a Friday. This person knows the precepts of the Church from childhood but orders a meat entree anyway out of habit.
    You knew this person was/is a Catholic.  You just provided an occasion of sin for them.  Take them out on another day.  What they do on Friday alone is on them but you put the temptation before them.
    It was probably a good guess that they'd order meat.  Why not take them to a seafood restaurant if it's Friday?
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #3 on: May 21, 2024, 08:22:00 PM »
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  • A. Burn the apostate at the stake.
    B. Burn the Protestant at the stake.

    :laugh1:

    C. Burn the steak at the stake.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #4 on: May 21, 2024, 08:37:19 PM »
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  • In neither A nor B did you sin, nor did you encourage sin, so what they ordered is not your fault.  That's on them.

    For A, you could just not go to lunch on a friday.  For B, just say, "No, I don't have time to pick that up for you."  But it's not required.


    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #5 on: May 21, 2024, 09:12:32 PM »
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  • In neither A nor B did you sin, nor did you encourage sin, so what they ordered is not your fault.  That's on them.
    Re A. knowing what was known about the person, the host knew there was a probability/possibility of the person not abstaining  nor fasting that day.  Therefore the host provided the temptation to sin, and that's on the host.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #6 on: May 21, 2024, 09:20:16 PM »
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  • Quote
    Re A. knowing what was known about the person, the host knew there was a probability/possibility of the person not abstaining  nor fasting that day.  Therefore the host provided the temptation to sin, and that's on the host.
    No, sorry, you’re wrong.  Only if the person had made it clear (ie “Hey, if you take me out to dinner on Friday, I’m ordering meat.”) then you’d be guilty.  


    In all other cases, what the person orders is on them.  Had you not taken them to lunch on Friday, they would have had lunch somewhere else and eaten meat anyway.  

    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #7 on: May 21, 2024, 09:42:07 PM »
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  • Nine ways of being accessary to another's sin
    1. By counsel
    2. By command
    3. By consent
    4. By provocation
    5. By praise or flattery
    6. By concealment
    7. By partaking
    8. By silence
    9. By defense of the ill done

    Number 4 and maybe #8 apply.

     Had you not taken them to lunch on Friday, they would have had lunch somewhere else and eaten meat anyway. 

    What the guest did or didn't do away from the host is not the issue

    Re A. knowing what was known about the person, the host knew there was a probability/possibility of the person not abstaining  nor fasting that day.  Therefore the host provided the temptation to sin, and that's on the host.
    If the host had taken the guest to a brothel for a drink would the host be guilty if the guest had more than a drink when the host had fore knowledge that the guest was so inclined?
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #8 on: May 21, 2024, 10:18:31 PM »
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  • Provocation/temptation doesn’t apply because the temptation comes from the person himself (ie he’s hungry).  It’s not like she asked the person “Do you want steak for lunch?”  Nor does it sound like she invited the person, on a Friday, to a steakhouse (and then ordered shrimp).

    The silence aspect only applies if you are a superior of the sinner (then you have an obligation to correct).  The person in question did NOT order meat, thus they were not silent on the matter, but followed the law.  Also, you don’t know that the person didn’t say say, “It’s Friday, I’m ordering fish.  What are you getting?”  Which would be a reminder of the law. 

    The rules of fraternal correction apply here.  One is not obligated to go out of their way to stop evil (if that we’re even possible, due to free will), especially if the person will reject your attempts and become more bitter against God/Church.  If you repeatedly scold/preach to sinners, (and you’re not a superior), you actually commit a sin yourself, against prudence and charity.

    Ps you’re using the word “host” incorrectly.  An invitation to a lunch place is not the same as “hosting” someone at your house and grilling a steak on Friday. 

    Your brothel example is dumb because it’s a specific place, which is an occasion to sin.  In regards to restaurants, 99.99999% of them serve meat of some kind, every single day.  Meat is not an occasion to sin but it’s just forbidden on fridays.  

    And, if we want to get technical, V2 changed the law and allowed meat to be eaten on Friday (if another penance is substituted), so outside of Ash Wed or Good Friday, there’s no more meatless Fridays.  You can’t be sure the person sinned because they could’ve done a private penance later. 

    Offline FarmerWife

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #9 on: May 22, 2024, 09:07:57 AM »
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  • You knew this person was/is a Catholic.  You just provided an occasion of sin for them.  Take them out on another day.  What they do on Friday alone is on them but you put the temptation before them.
    It was probably a good guess that they'd order meat.  Why not take them to a seafood restaurant if it's Friday?
    That’s ridiculous. I haven’t had a problem getting a meatless option at a restaurant, there are vegetable soups, salads, probably fish/lentil/bean. The person is not a child.

    Offline jersey60

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #10 on: May 22, 2024, 11:22:32 AM »
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  • I was once told that meatless Friday is not divine law, therefore unknowingly ordering it is not a sin. If they're a practicing Catholic and order meat anyway, 100% on them...that's my two-cents.


    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #11 on: May 22, 2024, 01:05:41 PM »
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  • Provocation/temptation doesn’t apply because the temptation comes from the person himself (ie he’s hungry).  It’s not like she asked the person “Do you want steak for lunch?” Nor does it sound like she invited the person, on a Friday, to a steakhouse (and then ordered shrimp).
    Of course she did. not a steakhouse but a full menu establishment.

    The silence aspect only applies if you are a superior of the sinner (then you have an obligation to correct).  The person in question did NOT order meat, thus they were not silent on the matter, but followed the law.  Also, you don’t know that the person didn’t say say, “It’s Friday, I’m ordering fish.  What are you getting?”  Which would be a reminder of the law.
     In all the places the "Nine ways of being an accessory to another's sin" is published, nowhere is it ever stated that these nine ways apply only if you are a superior of the sinner.

    The rules of fraternal correction apply here.  One is not obligated to go out of their way to stop evil (if that we’re even possible, due to free will), especially if the person will reject your attempts and become more bitter against God/Church.  If you repeatedly scold/preach to sinners, (and you’re not a superior), you actually commit a sin yourself, against prudence and charity.
    This hardly qualifies as going "out of their way" .

    Ps you’re using the word “host” incorrectly.  An invitation to a lunch place is not the same as “hosting” someone at your house and grilling a steak on Friday.
     No I'm not.  The OP stated she was paying therefore the other person was being invited as her guest, thereby making her the host of that guest.  Check the dictionary.  Location/venue is irrelevant.

    Your brothel example is dumb because it’s a specific place, which is an occasion to sin.  In regards to restaurants, 99.99999% of them serve meat of some kind, every single day.  Meat is not an occasion to sin but it’s just forbidden on fridays. 

    And, if we want to get technical, V2 changed the law and allowed meat to be eaten on Friday (if another penance is substituted), so outside of Ash Wed or Good Friday, there’s no more meatless Fridays.  You can’t be sure the person sinned because they could’ve done a private penance later.
    OP only asked for thoughts on the limited scenario given so I only gave an opinion on what was provided
    Quote from: FarmerWife 5/22/2024, 10:07:57 AM
    That’s ridiculous. I haven’t had a problem getting a meatless option at a restaurant, there are vegetable soups, salads, probably fish/lentil/bean. The person is not a child.
    I don't understand your point.  It was a full menu restaurant as obviously the OP didn't order meat.  I think everyone understood the person wasn't a child.
    No, sorry, you’re wrong.  Only if the person had made it clear (ie “Hey, if you take me out to dinner on Friday, I’m ordering meat.”) then you’d be guilty. 
    No, with the info given in the OP scenario the host knew there was a very good chance the guest wouldn't abstain.
    Putting this out there to see what folks here think/do. Say you have one of these scenarios or something similar:

    a) You take an apostate Catholic out to lunch (this is a close relative) saying you'll pay. It's a Friday. This person knows the precepts of the Church from childhood but orders a meat entree anyway out of habit.

    b) A Protestant friend asks you to bring back (and fronts you the cash for) a few pounds of really good barbecue since you're traveling anyway near a town that's known for really good barbecue. Given the timing, odds are that this will get eaten on a Friday.

    Both of these people know about your traditional Catholic dietary habits, have commented that these are "weird", but will ask about and listen to catechesis respectfully enough.

    I figure that a basic principle is not to enable other peoples' sins even if they don't think they're sinning.

    ABSOLUTELY !
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #12 on: May 22, 2024, 01:49:20 PM »
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  • Quote
    not a steakhouse but a full menu establishment.
    Exactly, you proved my point.  Going to a steakhouse on a friday, might be a proximate temptation for some.  Going to a normal restaurant would not be a temptation (or a remote one), as there are a variety of menu options, including vegan.  So your original assertion that going to ANY restaurant is a temptation is dumb.


    Quote
    nowhere is it ever stated that these nine ways apply only if you are a superior of the sinner.
    The point is, you have to use common sense.  You can't apply these "9 ways" to every situation, and ONLY these 9 ways.  There are other "rules" that Catholics must live by (i.e. rules of fraternal correction).  Further, your application of "sins of silence" is wrong because one can "speak" on a topic in a variety of ways, including non-verbally.  The invited person probably knows that their catholic friend doesn't eat meat on fridays...you aren't required to mention it every single time you eat a meal on fridays.


    Quote
    No, with the info given in the OP scenario the host knew there was a very good chance the guest wouldn't abstain.
    The practical problem is "where do you draw the line?"  If you go into a restaurant on a friday, by yourself, are you obligated to tell the server that Catholics don't eat meat on fridays?  Should you tell the couple in the table next to you, whom you see eating a steak?  Should you tell the whole restaurant?  If you don't say anything, aren't you guilty by "silence"?  Of course, you're not guilty.

    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #13 on: May 22, 2024, 02:51:06 PM »
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  • Pax you keep going off the track.
    My responses were to the OP on the limited info supplied.  I drew the line there.  Some of your scenarios were just nonsensical
    The OP already had a correct inkling of the situation when she stated "I figure that a basic principle is not to enable other peoples' sins even if they don't think they're sinning", and merely asked for opinions to which I gave mine.
    And I'm done.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #14 on: May 22, 2024, 02:58:58 PM »
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  • To whoever reported a post in this thread: I see no problem with it. I merely see an argument. Carry on.
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