Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: TheKnightVigilant on January 25, 2014, 04:33:13 PM
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Had an encounter with two Jehovah's Witnesses who knocked on my door today. I have scarce knowledge of the JW's false theology but these two at least were viciously anti-Catholic. When I informed them of my Catholicism they told me that the Catholic Church was a false sect created by men, that the Catholic Church withheld Sacred Scripture from the common people for 1500 years, that Catholics are "always killing other people just like the Muslims", and (bizarrely) that "Catholics bombed this country during WW2". I responded to every argument to the best of my abilities but the poor men were thoroughly entrenched in their false positions. When they asked me the question "what hope is there for the dead?" I responded "Those who belong to the one true Church that Christ founded can hope for salvation, but those who reject it will go into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels", quoting Matthew 25:41, at which point they denied the existence of hell. Later on they denied the existence of the soul, and actually asked me "where in scripture does it say that people have souls?". When they attacked Christ's Church for the umpteenth time, I think upon the "Catholics are always killing people just like the Muslims" remark, I decided I'd had enough and said "You belong to a false religion which is of the devil. Goodbye" before closing the door in their faces. In retrospect I should have handled that better and behaved more reasonably, but in anger my judgement became clouded.
In any case, it was a bizarre experience. First time I've engaged in a heated debate on my doorstep. Now I want to learn more about this false religion in the event that I have occasion to debate them again.
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If Catholics would join together, recognize the obvious state of sedevacante and stop wasting time by denying Catholic teaching on Baptism of Desire and Blood, we could as a unified force begin to deal with the sectarians.
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If Catholics would join together, recognize the obvious state of sedevacante and stop wasting time by denying Catholic teaching on Baptism of Desire and Blood, we could as a unified force begin to deal with the sectarians.
How would you suggest we deal with them? There are so few people left who believe in even most of the Church's teachings.
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I have zero respect of JHers since about 15 years ago when they thought it was their right to come into my parish for Mass and express their views.
I sat in front of a couple who hissed "He is stupid" and "That is stupid" as the priest gave his homily one Sunday.
The diocese got a restraining order against them they felt was not valid, so they were arrested and went to jail, that fixed them.
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I can't claim an exhaustive knowledge of this bizarre sect, but from what I've read & been told by acquaintances (may God have mercy on them) who belong to the sect they deny even those doctrines which most protestants retain. They deny the divinity of Christ, so of course it logically follows that they deny the Trinity, they deny the eternal punishment of those who die in mortal sin, they say that St. Michael the Archangel & Our Lord are the same person. They are pacifists, that is they deny that one has any right to self-defence under any circuмstances. They are millenarians believing in the coming of a terrestrial paradise, if I remember right they also deny the resurrection of the body. The aggression you described would seem to indicate that they've been through a programme of brainwashing. They're conditioned never to think about any counter-argument offered but rather to simply parrot their talking-points over & over. Humanly speaking there's really nothing anyone can do for them once they've reached this stage. One must leave them to their fate & pray that God would enlighten these poor fools by a miracle of His grace.
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If Catholics would join together, recognize the obvious state of sedevacante and stop wasting time by denying Catholic teaching on Baptism of Desire and Blood, we could as a unified force begin to deal with the sectarians.
How would you suggest we deal with them? There are so few people left who believe in even most of the Church's teachings.
The Church is an indestructible force when Catholics act as a unified force under the lawful pastors of the Church.
We are not in a position to battle with the sects, as we are in a battle ourselves with the Conciliar church, and with others who say they follow the tradition of the Church, yet deny dogmatic truths.
Last, we are also not able to convince fellow Catholics that the man Francis is a heretic, therefore an antipope. The Church will not be a force against heretics until a Pope comes again, and this endless belief that public heretical antipopes are popes is dramatically slowing down the process of having a lawful election of a Pope.
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They deny the divinity of Christ, so of course it logically follows that
they deny the Trinity,
they deny the eternal punishment of those who die in mortal sin,
they say that St. Michael the Archangel & Our Lord are the same person.
They are pacifists, that is
they deny that one has any right to self-defence under any circuмstances.
They are millenarians believing in the coming of a terrestrial paradise,
they also deny the resurrection of the body.
they've been through a programme of brainwashing.
They're conditioned never to think about any counter-argument offered but rather to simply parrot their talking-points over & over.
And they don't know how to party!
No celebrations:
No Christmas
No Easter
No birthdays.
Apart from that they're very nice people.
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I've found them to be exceptionally nice people too.
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Had an encounter with two Jehovah's Witnesses who knocked on my door today. I have scarce knowledge of the JW's false theology but these two at least were viciously anti-Catholic. When I informed them of my Catholicism they told me that the Catholic Church was a false sect created by men, that the Catholic Church withheld Sacred Scripture from the common people for 1500 years, that Catholics are "always killing other people just like the Muslims", and (bizarrely) that "Catholics bombed this country during WW2". I responded to every argument to the best of my abilities but the poor men were thoroughly entrenched in their false positions. When they asked me the question "what hope is there for the dead?" I responded "Those who belong to the one true Church that Christ founded can hope for salvation, but those who reject it will go into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels", quoting Matthew 25:41, at which point they denied the existence of hell. Later on they denied the existence of the soul, and actually asked me "where in scripture does it say that people have souls?". When they attacked Christ's Church for the umpteenth time, I think upon the "Catholics are always killing people just like the Muslims" remark, I decided I'd had enough and said "You belong to a false religion which is of the devil. Goodbye" before closing the door in their faces. In retrospect I should have handled that better and behaved more reasonably, but in anger my judgement became clouded.
In any case, it was a bizarre experience. First time I've engaged in a heated debate on my doorstep. Now I want to learn more about this false religion in the event that I have occasion to debate them again.
You did the right thing. You explained Catholicism to them. I would suggest that next time you really lay it on thick and tell them that you are sorry for them because they are being led by Satan. I was going to say that it would be good to pray for them (it would be good) but I think the Holy Souls in Purgatory are far more deserving of our precious prayer time here and now.
Research the Jehovah's Witnesses and find out the name of the con artist who started the whole thing and throw that in their faces.
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They deny the divinity of Christ, so of course it logically follows that
they deny the Trinity,
they deny the eternal punishment of those who die in mortal sin,
they say that St. Michael the Archangel & Our Lord are the same person.
They are pacifists, that is
they deny that one has any right to self-defence under any circuмstances.
They are millenarians believing in the coming of a terrestrial paradise,
they also deny the resurrection of the body.
they've been through a programme of brainwashing.
They're conditioned never to think about any counter-argument offered but rather to simply parrot their talking-points over & over.
And they don't know how to party!
No celebrations:
No Christmas
No Easter
No birthdays.
Apart from that they're very nice people.
Say, just like the stupid hoax known as Noachidism, maybe the Jehovah's Witness religion was started by a Jєωιѕн agitator to lead the stupid into perdition? It's at least likely.
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I have heard they believe in the annihilation of the reprobate souls, as opposed to eternal damnation in Hell.
On a separate note, they do not dance! :stare:
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I have heard they believe in the annihilation of the reprobate souls, as opposed to eternal damnation in Hell.
On a separate note, they do not dance! :stare:
Michael Jackson and his entire family are/were JH.
You can dance if you write a big enough check.
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Spot on Captain McQuigg! I looked up Charles Taze Russell, the founder of the sect, & he was indeed a rabid zionist.
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http://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Apologetics/How-To-Talk-To-Jehovahs-Witnesses.htm
http://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Apologetics/Jehovah-Witnesses-History-Techniques.htm
http://lxoaarchive.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/wj.pdf
(That last site looks like something worthy of exploration. Over 150 Catholic pamphlets!)
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Michael Jackson and his entire family are/were JH.
:dancing-banana: I think you meant Mormon, not JW! Not that either is any good!
The JWs in NYC are mostly Spanish speaking, former Catholics who never knew their Faith, hence, when a couple of well-dressed nice ladies show up at their door...
Personally, I've not had good experiences with JWs. When I was very young, my mother and I were literally followed out of a public restroom and chased across a playground in a PA state park. The pair backed off only when my Dad emerged from our camping trailer.
Years later, I had two women and a boy of about 9 "accidentally" enter my upstairs apartment. The stairs were part of the apartment, so I can understand someone initially making the mistake, but I had two signs posted, one on the back door, another at the top of the stairs. I heard them from my bedroom, and when I opened the door, they walked right in despite the fact that I was wearing a night gown! The lady with the briefcase fall of Watchtowers sat on the window seat and began her speech! The only one with enough sense to be embarrassed was the boy who was red-faced and staring at his shoes. They had been let into the building by a downstairs neighbor whom, I later found out, had told them NOT to bother the other tenants. Unbelievably, I was asked, "What do think is the cause for the decline of morals in the world?" I missed my chance. The right answer was, "Heretics who walk uninvited into other people's houses. Get out!" Instead, I said something like, "Can't you see I've got the flu? Please leave. I'm not interested in changing my religion." They left a few tracts on the hall table, despite my telling them no. The mayor of the tiny upstate NY village met with their "pastor" or whatever he's called and basically told him to stop sending his people because nearly everyone was either Catholic, Mennonite or Baptist, and all three considered JWs to be a cult. The Kingdom Hall wasn't there more than a few years. Last time I saw the building, it was a veterinary office!
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Nearly every Jehovah Witness I have every met who wanted to talk religion with me told me he was a former Catholic. Sometimes I thought it was lie to try to make a connection with me, but most of the times they seemed to have knowledge of the Novus Ordo sect that led me to believe that the uncertainty of the Novus Ordo religion drove them away and to a religion that teaches certainty, not just about salvation, but in many moral teachings.
The one argument that they seem to hate is the historical argument. When I've started to discuss the historical roots of the Catholic Church (I don't discuss anything with them on their terms, I simply tell them they are not on the "right road"), they have always been the ones to tell me that they have to go on, but, they always tell me that they will come back. None ever has in spite of the fact that there is a "Kingdom Hall" (I think that's what they call their churches, it used to have a sign that said that but they took off the "Kingdom Hall" part) about 5 miles away in this rural area.
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Michael Jackson and his entire family are/were JH.
:dancing-banana: I think you meant Mormon, not JW! Not that either is any good!
The JWs in NYC are mostly Spanish speaking, former Catholics who never knew their Faith, hence, when a couple of well-dressed nice ladies show up at their door...
Personally, I've not had good experiences with JWs. When I was very young, my mother and I were literally followed out of a public restroom and chased across a playground in a PA state park. The pair backed off only when my Dad emerged from our camping trailer.
Years later, I had two women and a boy of about 9 "accidentally" enter my upstairs apartment. The stairs were part of the apartment, so I can understand someone initially making the mistake, but I had two signs posted, one on the back door, another at the top of the stairs. I heard them from my bedroom, and when I opened the door, they walked right in despite the fact that I was wearing a night gown! The lady with the briefcase fall of Watchtowers sat on the window seat and began her speech! The only one with enough sense to be embarrassed was the boy who was red-faced and staring at his shoes. They had been let into the building by a downstairs neighbor whom, I later found out, had told them NOT to bother the other tenants. Unbelievably, I was asked, "What do think is the cause for the decline of morals in the world?" I missed my chance. The right answer was, "Heretics who walk uninvited into other people's houses. Get out!" Instead, I said something like, "Can't you see I've got the flu? Please leave. I'm not interested in changing my religion." They left a few tracts on the hall table, despite my telling them no. The mayor of the tiny upstate NY village met with their "pastor" or whatever he's called and basically told him to stop sending his people because nearly everyone was either Catholic, Mennonite or Baptist, and all three considered JWs to be a cult. The Kingdom Hall wasn't there more than a few years. Last time I saw the building, it was a veterinary office!
Why don't you simple Google search before making a fool of yourself and derailing my answer ?
The Jackson were/are JHers.
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Had an encounter with two Jehovah's Witnesses who knocked on my door today. I have scarce knowledge of the JW's false theology but these two at least were viciously anti-Catholic. When I informed them of my Catholicism they told me that the Catholic Church was a false sect created by men, that the Catholic Church withheld Sacred Scripture from the common people for 1500 years, that Catholics are "always killing other people just like the Muslims", and (bizarrely) that "Catholics bombed this country during WW2". I responded to every argument to the best of my abilities but the poor men were thoroughly entrenched in their false positions. When they asked me the question "what hope is there for the dead?" I responded "Those who belong to the one true Church that Christ founded can hope for salvation, but those who reject it will go into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels", quoting Matthew 25:41, at which point they denied the existence of hell. Later on they denied the existence of the soul, and actually asked me "where in scripture does it say that people have souls?". When they attacked Christ's Church for the umpteenth time, I think upon the "Catholics are always killing people just like the Muslims" remark, I decided I'd had enough and said "You belong to a false religion which is of the devil. Goodbye" before closing the door in their faces. In retrospect I should have handled that better and behaved more reasonably, but in anger my judgement became clouded.
In any case, it was a bizarre experience. First time I've engaged in a heated debate on my doorstep. Now I want to learn more about this false religion in the event that I have occasion to debate them again.
I once sat beside a JW woman on a coach. We spoke about God and she wanted to give me leaflets and cards. I read them and pointed out how they contradict the bible. I explained to her that the church has a memory, and that tradition is the practice of what memory knows worked well. She could not believe that she met a Catholic who could defeat her arguments and who had burning faith. Her husband was a Catholic, but she did not think too much of his faith. In the end there was respect from her for the church, but whether she would convert is unknown, perhaps the seeds were planted that will blossom into the faith again. They can be beaten. First try and all.
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Crossbro,
Some of the Jacksons are JW- others are Muslim, and for awhile MJ toyed with becoming a Muslim himself, and surrounded himself with Nation of Islam goons as body guards.
Also , why do you have to be so rude and mean to people? Did you take that example from some saint you have been studying?
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Here's my advice for dealing with anyone who's trying to convince you that the Catholic church is false: ask them to explain the didache to you.
This annoys them because they are forced to ask what the didache is, and you have the opportunity to explain what it is, who wrote it, where it came from and prove without much fuss that the catholic church has been around since Christ and isn't going anywhere because people alive today know what the didache is and how to live by it, 2k years later.
It is crazymaking for the restorationists that think they've got the true religion, which is only at a maximum, a couple hundred years old and is usually just a moneymaking scheme or a power gathering scheme.
They also love, love, love calling catholics idoliters for praying to saints, usually because they confuse prayer with worship, but they say we shouldn't do it, so I ask them why did Jesus do it then? They say we shouldn't ask Mary for anything because Mary can't do anything to effect God's will, so I tell them to go back and read the wedding at canaa where Jesus began his ministry early because she asked him to.
Honestly, when engaging with non-catholics, they only know what they've been told and it is the same old song every time. They have no idea why they believe what they believe, they just know what they've been told and don't know their faith or anyone else's. I oughta know, I've been a member of just about every religion there is, and they've never been able to convince me that they had anything special going on.
Case in point: Mormons believe that Adam became god and when their founder Joseph smith died, he replaced Adam and became god. Ask a Mormon about it, they have no clue that this is in their canon. Most of them also have no idea that their old 'prophet' Brigham Young taught that men live on the moon and that they dress like Quakers. So, you know Neil Armstrong was searching high and low for some moon Quakers!! :laugh1:
Sorry, but it helps to know that when keeping the faith gets tough, you can thank God you're not a JW or a Mormon! :wink:
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Had an encounter with two Jehovah's Witnesses who knocked on my door today. I have scarce knowledge of the JW's false theology but these two at least were viciously anti-Catholic. When I informed them of my Catholicism they told me that the Catholic Church was a false sect created by men, that the Catholic Church withheld Sacred Scripture from the common people for 1500 years, that Catholics are "always killing other people just like the Muslims", and (bizarrely) that "Catholics bombed this country during WW2". I responded to every argument to the best of my abilities but the poor men were thoroughly entrenched in their false positions. When they asked me the question "what hope is there for the dead?" I responded "Those who belong to the one true Church that Christ founded can hope for salvation, but those who reject it will go into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels", quoting Matthew 25:41, at which point they denied the existence of hell. Later on they denied the existence of the soul, and actually asked me "where in scripture does it say that people have souls?". When they attacked Christ's Church for the umpteenth time, I think upon the "Catholics are always killing people just like the Muslims" remark, I decided I'd had enough and said "You belong to a false religion which is of the devil. Goodbye" before closing the door in their faces. In retrospect I should have handled that better and behaved more reasonably, but in anger my judgement became clouded.
In any case, it was a bizarre experience. First time I've engaged in a heated debate on my doorstep. Now I want to learn more about this false religion in the event that I have occasion to debate them again.
I once sat beside a JW woman on a coach. We spoke about God and she wanted to give me leaflets and cards. I read them and pointed out how they contradict the bible. I explained to her that the church has a memory, and that tradition is the practice of what memory knows worked well. She could not believe that she met a Catholic who could defeat her arguments and who had burning faith. Her husband was a Catholic, but she did not think too much of his faith. In the end there was respect from her for the church, but whether she would convert is unknown, perhaps the seeds were planted that will blossom into the faith again. They can be beaten. First try and all.
I was on a bus once with a crowd of Mormons and JHers, I thought those two groups of women were going to kill each other.
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To be a fly on the window of that bus! :smoke-pot:
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Michael Jackson and his entire family are/were JH.
Why don't you simple Google search before making a fool of yourself and derailing my answer ?
The Jackson were/are JHers.
:dancing-banana:
Because I thought for sure they were Mormon? Some (in)famous singer was/is Mormon. Why do a search when I am sure of my mistake? So, I'm a fool? How does that "derail" your answer? :dancing: :jester: :laugh2: :jumping2: :roll-laugh1:
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They are always at our doorstep, knocking and ringing our bell. Most of the time we ignore them, mostly because we are just too busy.
But, one day, my father actually answered the door for them when he had some friends over, and they were just about to start the Rosary. He invited them in, introduced them, then mentioned they were about to pray and how they would not mind listening to what they had to say after the Rosary. He invited them to join, instead they promptly declined and left.
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. . . Some (in)famous singer was/is Mormon. . .
Donnie & Marie Osmond
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Nearly every Jehovah Witness I have every met who wanted to talk religion with me told me he was a former Catholic. Sometimes I thought it was lie to try to make a connection with me, but most of the times they seemed to have knowledge of the Novus Ordo sect that led me to believe that the uncertainty of the Novus Ordo religion drove them away and to a religion that teaches certainty, not just about salvation, but in many moral teachings.
The one argument that they seem to hate is the historical argument. When I've started to discuss the historical roots of the Catholic Church (I don't discuss anything with them on their terms, I simply tell them they are not on the "right road"), they have always been the ones to tell me that they have to go on, but, they always tell me that they will come back. None ever has in spite of the fact that there is a "Kingdom Hall" (I think that's what they call their churches, it used to have a sign that said that but they took off the "Kingdom Hall" part) about 5 miles away in this rural area.
I have a cousin who left conciliardom and joined JW. He frequently served "mass" as an altarboy in the early/mid 80s. It's been years since any of my immediate family has seen him. He had a lot of questions for my dad about the crusades and the Pope raising armies that the JW had brainwashed him about that seemed of great concern to him last time any of us saw him.
Luther set the stage for all such heresies and cults. Then along came JXXIII & PVI and conceded yet more turf to such for the Catholics who had remained firm and faithful to the Church some another 400+ years past Luther to fall prey to. The convening of V-II, watering down of and inserting ambiguity into Church teaching, and the infliction of the NO upon the faithful were either intentional attacks against Catholicism, or blunders of such magnitude that, either way, I struggle to see them coming from a valid successor of Peter and a true Vicar of Christ.