Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6

Author Topic: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants  (Read 11968 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 43970
  • Reputation: +25506/-4408
  • Gender: Male
Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #60 on: September 07, 2023, 11:07:54 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Yes, Rahner rightly stated that THE biggest shift at Vatican II was related to the salvation issue, the increased "hope of salvation" for all, including those outside the Church.  Every error in Vatican II ultimately traces back to this.  Since there's no getting around the fact that EENS has been solidly defined 3 times and repeated over and over again, "No Salvation Outside the Church" requires that they redefine "Church" and the criteria for belonging to said "Church".  Religious Liberty is also related because of the subjectivization of the criteria for salvation and for pleasing God.  If men please God and save their souls by following their (even erroneous) consciences, then they have a right to please God and save their souls, and therefore follow their (even erroneous) consciences.

    Rahner marvelled at the fact that the dramatic shift in EENS went entirely unnoticed by the conservative faction at the Council, that while they called out many other things, they missed the fundamental core shift.

    But that's because the subjectivized shift in the understanding of EENS had been well under way for centuries.  You start with "Rewarder God" theory, and then turn "BoD" into something that can be attained by any "nice guy" ex opere operantis on account of his "niceness", or, as Bishop Williamson mocked it, "nitheness" (with a lisp), and the entirety of Catholicism has been gutted.
    Logged

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 11208
    • Reputation: +6863/-1864
    • Gender: Male
    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #61 on: September 07, 2023, 01:19:03 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0

    • Quote
    This evil and dangerous doctrine of "the final salvation of all mankind,".... and that progression has been a main focus of this thread. I would trace its development as a perversion of God's desire to save "all men" into the idea that God gives all men sufficient grace for salvation. A more traditional understanding of this phrase in various senses is expressed by St. Thomas in the Summa, First Part, Question 19, Article 6, Objection 1:
    1.  God does give all men sufficient grace for salvation; this is infallible from Scripture.

    a.  St Paul tells us that "God wills that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim 2)
    b.  St Paul tells us that "God will not permit you to be tempted beyond your strength."
    c.  Conclusion - All men, if they respond to grace, can avoid sin, which will merit them sufficient graces to know the Truth (i.e. Church), then persevere to salvation.
    d.  This is infallible.

    2.  Salvation is a mystery.  As Fr Wathen pointed out, no one can fully understand how God works/deals with others in their life, since we don't even understand the ways in which God works in our own life.

    3.  Since salvation is a mystery, so is the idea of predestination.  I don't pretend to understand St Thomas' ideas as they are beyond me.



    Quote
    Salvation in Christ Is Offered to All

    10. The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church.
    The errors of V2/JP2 on salvation is not, in my opinion, that "salvation is offered by God to all".  The error lies in the prideful idea that it is "concretely available", or that God's ways can be understood by man, or that God's work in our soul, through our conscience, His Divine Providence, and such "spiritual coincidences" can be known, materially (i.e. that grace can be measured).  


    Thus, this leads to the V2 heresy that those "who do not have the opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel or enter the Church" weren't "given a chance" by God.  Horrible blasphemy this is!  Because, as St Thomas (and many others tell us), God does not cast pearls before swine, and many do not get graces because of sins.  If you can't/don't want to follow the natural law, then you've already damned yourself.  You don't need to hear about the gospel or the Church, if you're on your 4th marriage or your a drug dealer for life.
    Logged

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2237
    • Reputation: +830/-139
    • Gender: Male
    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #62 on: September 07, 2023, 01:34:26 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 07, 2023, 01:19:03 PM
    1.  God does give all men sufficient grace for salvation; this is infallible from Scripture.

    a.  St Paul tells us that "God wills that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim 2)
    b.  St Paul tells us that "God will not permit you to be tempted beyond your strength."
    c.  Conclusion - All men, if they respond to grace, can avoid sin, which will merit them sufficient graces to know the Truth (i.e. Church), then persevere to salvation.
    d.  This is infallible.

    The whole thing above falls apart with 1a, which assumes a false sense - unnecessarily, since there are other credible senses of the verse, as indicated by St. Thomas's quotes above, that don't conflict with the reality at issue, i.e, infants who die in infancy without baptism. 

    I doubt you even read my last post. St. Alphonsus offers the only rational interpretation of the phrase in the context of infants who die without baptism in infancy. You certainly haven't offered a rational alternative. 

    No one disputes that is what Scripture says, but it can't mean what you think it means. St. Thomas, St. Augustine, St. Alphonsus offer reasonable readings that don't conflict with the facts (again, those infants at issue). 

    Tell us what graces infants who die in infancy without baptism receive individually (have infused into them by God) so that they can make a choice regarding their salvation?

    You are not comfortable with the obvious conclusions and results that arise from thinking through the issue, so you go with what makes you comfortable and makes sense to you and doesn't offend your fallible and human sense of justice. That is how we got to the Novus Ordo, my friend. 
    Logged
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline trad123

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2042
    • Reputation: +448/-96
    • Gender: Male
    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #63 on: September 07, 2023, 01:46:18 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 07, 2023, 01:19:03 PM
    If you can't/don't want to follow the natural law, then you've already damned yourself.  You don't need to hear about the gospel or the Church, if you're on your 4th marriage or your a drug dealer for life.


    That's a bit much.  They have until their last breath.
    Logged
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 43970
    • Reputation: +25506/-4408
    • Gender: Male
    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #64 on: September 07, 2023, 02:13:16 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 07, 2023, 01:19:03 PM
    1. God does give all men sufficient grace for salvation; this is infallible from Scripture.

    OK, but how does this apply to infants who die without the Sacrament of Baptism?  That's what we're considering here.

    God WILLS all men to be saved, but He sometimes withholds His grace, out of mercy, for those whom He knows will reject it and therefore merit a greater punishment.

    I want to give a homeless man $1,000 out of compassion.  But I know that he's addicted to drugs, and it's highly likely (God knows with certainty of course) that he's going to end up dead from an overdose if I give him the $1,000.  So while I will to show him the mercy of giving him the money, it's mercy also that inspires me to withhold it.
    Logged

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 11208
    • Reputation: +6863/-1864
    • Gender: Male
    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #65 on: September 07, 2023, 02:27:15 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

    • Quote
    If you can't/don't want to follow the natural law, then you've already damned yourself.  You don't need to hear about the gospel or the Church, if you're on your 4th marriage or your a drug dealer for life.
    It's a hypothetical situation.
    Logged

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 11208
    • Reputation: +6863/-1864
    • Gender: Male
    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #66 on: September 07, 2023, 02:36:22 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote
    OK, but how does this apply to infants who die without the Sacrament of Baptism?  That's what we're considering here.
    Infants aren't at the age of reason, so now matter how much grace God gives (except for the grace of baptism), they can't profit from it (assuming they die before reaching reason).  They are the exception to the rule.


    Quote
    God WILLS all men to be saved, but He sometimes withholds His grace, out of mercy, for those whom He knows will reject it and therefore merit a greater punishment.

    I want to give a homeless man $1,000 out of compassion.  But I know that he's addicted to drugs, and it's highly likely (God knows with certainty of course) that he's going to end up dead from an overdose if I give him the $1,000.  So while I will to show him the mercy of giving him the money, it's mercy also that inspires me to withhold it.
    This is true, for the present situation of this hypothetical homeless man.  But...before he was addicted to drugs, he was given all kinds of graces to resist, which he did not.  Had he resisted, and had he followed the natural law, he may have found Catholicism and converted.  But he didn't.


    Just as you wouldn't give this man $1,000 for fear he'd abuse the gift, so God would not give him the grace of the gospel/Church, for the man would reject it.
    Logged

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 11208
    • Reputation: +6863/-1864
    • Gender: Male
    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #67 on: September 07, 2023, 02:40:26 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

    • Quote
    The whole thing above falls apart with 1a, which assumes a false sense - unnecessarily, since there are other credible senses of the verse, as indicated by St. Thomas's quotes above, that don't conflict with the reality at issue, i.e, infants who die in infancy without baptism. 

    I doubt you even read my last post. St. Alphonsus offers the only rational interpretation of the phrase in the context of infants who die without baptism in infancy. You certainly haven't offered a rational alternative. 

    No one disputes that is what Scripture says, but it can't mean what you think it means. St. Thomas, St. Augustine, St. Alphonsus offer reasonable readings that don't conflict with the facts (again, those infants at issue). 
    Infants are the exception to the rule.  I was responding to your commentary on JP2, which was obviously NOT dealing with infants, but those of the age of reason.  God DOES will all men to be saved; infants don't have reason, so they wouldn't apply in this case.
    Logged

    Offline trad123

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2042
    • Reputation: +448/-96
    • Gender: Male
    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #68 on: September 07, 2023, 02:40:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 07, 2023, 02:36:22 PM
    Infants aren't at the age of reason, so now matter how much grace God gives (except for the grace of baptism), they can't profit from it.


    He said the sacrament of baptism, specifically.

    In other words, if God so willed he could bring baptism to ever single infant, but does not.
    Logged
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2042
    • Reputation: +448/-96
    • Gender: Male
    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #69 on: September 07, 2023, 02:42:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Just as well, if an infant who is baptized would grow up as an adult and end their life in mortal sin, it's entirely within such power to cut their lives immediately after baptism, when they're still infants, to ensure the salvation of such persons.
    Logged
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 11208
    • Reputation: +6863/-1864
    • Gender: Male
    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #70 on: September 07, 2023, 02:47:01 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

    • Quote
    Just as well, if an infant who is baptized would grow up and end their lives in mortal sin
    Right.  And God is the only person who can know how a person's life will end up, before they are even born.  So, if He withholds certain graces, it's for their benefit.  But we can't say that He withheld "sufficient" graces.  Everyone (save infants) receives "sufficient" graces, as St Paul tells us.


    Strictly speaking, since Limbo is not a doctrine, we don't even know if unbaptized infants go to Limbo.  Maybe they are given a choice, before death, (or even after death) to choose Christ or not?  We don't know.
    Logged

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 43970
    • Reputation: +25506/-4408
    • Gender: Male
    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #71 on: September 07, 2023, 03:58:01 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 07, 2023, 02:47:01 PM
    Strictly speaking, since Limbo is not a doctrine, we don't even know if unbaptized infants go to Limbo.  Maybe they are given a choice, before death, (or even after death) to choose Christ or not?  We don't know.

    Right, there's a lot we don't know.  In fact, a lot of people hostile to Feeneyism don't stop to think that God can easily get the Sacraments to His elect.  If there's a dying infidel, God can not only interiorly enlighten him about the faith but can even send an angel to baptize him as he lay dying.  It only takes a drop of water.  God can suspend time.  He can do anything.  There's absolutely no need whatsoever to question the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation.  If there had been some Native American in the 500s who had the proper disposition, God could get the Sacraments to him.  There were the stories about Mary of Agreda bilocating to the new world.  All this BoD stuff is predicated on this notion that God could be prevented by "necessity" from carrying out His providence.
    Logged

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 43970
    • Reputation: +25506/-4408
    • Gender: Male
    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #72 on: September 07, 2023, 04:06:21 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • St. Augustine:
    Quote
    If you wish to be a catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that “they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.” There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief. Now these are your words: “We say that some such method as this must be had recourse to in the case of infants who, being predestinated for baptism, are yet, by the failing of this life, hurried away before they are born again in Christ.” Is it then really true that any who have been predestinated to baptism are forestalled before they come to it by the failing of this life? And could God predestinate anything which He either in His foreknowledge saw would not come to pass, or in ignorance knew not that it could not come to pass, either to the frustration of His purpose or the discredit of His foreknowledge?

    Logged

    Offline trad123

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2042
    • Reputation: +448/-96
    • Gender: Male
    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #73 on: September 07, 2023, 04:09:11 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 07, 2023, 04:06:21 PM
    St. Augustine:



    Vortex of Confusion quote from St. Augusitne


    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/vortex-of-confusion-quote-from-st-augusitne/msg803700/#msg803700


    Quote
    I'm no so sure the vortex of confusion quote by St. Augustine is something written against baptism of blood or desire, but against proposing that "casualties that which [God] has predestinated [are] not permitted to come to pass", using the sacrament of baptism and infants as an example.



    Examples are in the thread I linked, above.

    Logged
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2237
    • Reputation: +830/-139
    • Gender: Male
    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #74 on: September 07, 2023, 04:46:22 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Of course, according to traditional Catholic dogma, men are born into a state of condemnation even before they commit any mortal sins; that's called, "original sin." And to say God foresees the mortal sins that some infants might commit if they were permitted to grow to adulthood, and decides to end the lives of those infants early, is a speculation that just proves my main point: God chooses those infants as opposed to others who he lets age and commit mortal sins and go to hell. Thus, He purely gratuitously favors one sinner who deserves hell over another whom He consigns to it.

    You can see here men (Pax, for example) fighting against the teachings of Scripture and its necessary conclusions, the same men who rail against the Novus Ordo and the Conciliarists who do the same thing with Tradition. Ironic.

    It is a rather poignant demonstration of my point.

    Read the citations of St. Augustine, St. Thomas, the Douay Rheims and Haydock annotations that I posted earlier in this thread, and ask yourself: why are these Trad Catholics like Pax "kicking against the pricks" and pulling against the teachings and their import regarding how God saves - gratuitously, and without man being determinative; man and his will are involved, but they are not determinative -  and the extent of man's role in salvation. 

    Pax can claim these infants are an "exception," but, since they are men, that exception disproves the claim that "all men" individually receive sufficient grace for salvation (all men do only in the sense expressed by St. Alphonsus - God's provision of the means (baptism) which can avail all and any men anywhere as the means of salvation). Mind you, it is not simply posited by influential theologians such as Francisco Marin-Sola (pre-V2) that men would not be damned without personal sin, but that all men would be saved if they didn't posit an obstacle - their sin or opposition - to God's will that they be saved. Clearly, the infants do not posit such an obstacle, and yet the Traditional Catholic view is that they are not saved.  One simply cannot square the view of theologians like Marin-Sola with the thought and teaching of men like St. Augustine, St. Thomas - Traditional, classical Catholic thought - on this issue.

    It is interesting to see Trads back away from the doctrine of Limbo to preserve their human sense of fairness/justice which they see as requiring that all men individually and directly receive sufficient grace for salvation. I see that as an indication of the problem that went to its extremes in the Novus Ordo religion.

    Logged
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.
    Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6
    « previous next »