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Author Topic: Sean Johnson on LifeSite News - Is He a Sede Now ?  (Read 7185 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: Sean Johnson on LifeSite News - Is He a Sede Now ?
« Reply #75 on: December 09, 2024, 11:20:15 AM »
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    In schism from what? The conciliar church? 
    That's what schism means - a formal division between 2 groups or organizations.


    Schism can be good or bad.  It depends on the situation.  

    In the situation of Trads, they are in schism with new-rome, but NOT is schism with Truth, doctrine, orthodoxy.
    In the situation of new-rome, they are in schism with Trads and also Truth, doctrine, orthodoxy.

    Trads are morally free from guilt.  New-rome is not.  But both are in schism, per the legal definition of the word.

    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Sean Johnson on LifeSite News - Is He a Sede Now ?
    « Reply #76 on: December 09, 2024, 01:36:24 PM »
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  • I usually sit on the sidelines watching the Sedevacantist debate with some amusement.  It is not an either/or situation.  It is true that Francis is either pope or he is not pope.  This is true.  But whether one can know positively that Francis is pope or not pope, this is not true.  No man in the world can know, positively, that Francis is pope.  Why cannot a man say, Francis may or may not be pope, who is to know given the current crisis?  

    If the new rites of the priesthood and the bishopric are called into question - and any sane Catholic would call these into question - then we all must ask the questions:  Are these Cardinals priests?  Are they bishops?  If they are not, then what?  This whole attitude that one must be a sedevacantist, or that he must not, seems on the face of it to be imbalanced.   
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    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Sean Johnson on LifeSite News - Is He a Sede Now ?
    « Reply #77 on: December 09, 2024, 06:39:42 PM »
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  • I usually sit on the sidelines watching the Sedevacantist debate with some amusement.  It is not an either/or situation.  It is true that Francis is either pope or he is not pope.  This is true.  But whether one can know positively that Francis is pope or not pope, this is not true.  No man in the world can know, positively, that Francis is pope.  Why cannot a man say, Francis may or may not be pope, who is to know given the current crisis? 

    If the new rites of the priesthood and the bishopric are called into question - and any sane Catholic would call these into question - then we all must ask the questions:  Are these Cardinals priests?  Are they bishops?  If they are not, then what?  This whole attitude that one must be a sedevacantist, or that he must not, seems on the face of it to be imbalanced. 

    I agree. I have very similar thoughts.

    On the practical side of things though, we have to choose. I mean, where do you go to mass? Do you fast as people did in the 50s, or do you accept Paul VI's rules? Do you assist at Una cuм masses or not?

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    Re: Sean Johnson on LifeSite News - Is He a Sede Now ?
    « Reply #78 on: December 10, 2024, 04:30:59 AM »
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  • I agree. I have very similar thoughts.

    On the practical side of things though, we have to choose. I mean, where do you go to mass? Do you fast as people did in the 50s, or do you accept Paul VI's rules? Do you assist at Una cuм masses or not?
    Why do we have to choose? Our business lies in avoiding sin and keeping the faith, not in deciding whether the pope is the pope or not. The pope has authority over us and are to obey him unless he wants us to do something that offends God. This is how true obedience to all authority works whether that authority is your general in the army,  drill sergeant, boss, parent or pope. Always has, always will.

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Sean Johnson on LifeSite News - Is He a Sede Now ?
    « Reply #79 on: December 10, 2024, 07:24:02 AM »
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  • Why do we have to choose? Our business lies in avoiding sin and keeping the faith, not in deciding whether the pope is the pope or not. The pope has authority over us and are to obey him unless he wants us to do something that offends God. This is how true obedience to all authority works whether that authority is your general in the army,  drill sergeant, boss, parent or pope. Always has, always will.

    Then you have already chosen R&R. No problem for me. May God bless you.


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    Re: Sean Johnson on LifeSite News - Is He a Sede Now ?
    « Reply #80 on: December 10, 2024, 07:49:29 AM »
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    On the practical side of things though, we have to choose.
    In the early days of Tradition, there were no dogmatic Sedes.  There were also no dogmatic R&R.  Post 1990s, this has changed.  But still, one can avoid dogmatic chapels and go to any Trad chapel.  That’s how it should be. 

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    Re: Sean Johnson on LifeSite News - Is He a Sede Now ?
    « Reply #81 on: December 10, 2024, 08:09:42 AM »
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    Do you fast as people did in the 50s, or do you accept Paul VI's rules? Do you assist at Una cuм masses or not?
    No one is going to hell if they mix up the fasting rules.  Una cuм was made up by Fr Cekada.  These are all man-made divisions in Traditionalism; these divisions are not from God.

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Sean Johnson on LifeSite News - Is He a Sede Now ?
    « Reply #82 on: December 10, 2024, 08:35:49 AM »
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  • No one is going to hell if they mix up the fasting rules.  Una cuм was made up by Fr Cekada.  These are all man-made divisions in Traditionalism; these divisions are not from God.
    "Una cuм" was made up by Bp. Guerard des Lauriers, if I am not mistaken.

    Anyway, I am only asking what people that are non-dogmatic Traditionalists do on their daily lives. We can learn through other people's good habits and customs.


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    Re: Sean Johnson on LifeSite News - Is He a Sede Now ?
    « Reply #83 on: December 10, 2024, 04:50:00 PM »
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  • If we want to be technical, R&R is also schismatic.  They say new-Rome is in authority but then do their own thing.    
    I find this a very poor argument but one the sedes fling towards non sedes all the time, it’s one of the main ones they use actually. 

    If a would-be Pope teaches something erroneous or heretical, no matter how orthodox he might appear to be, you cannot follow his teaching, and you don’t have to justify rejecting the teaching by first reaching the conclusion that hey, he’s actually not a real Pope because what he’s doing is technically impossible, so the only conclusion is that he must be a fake Pope etc. etc. so then NOW I have full justification to legitimately reject him. 

    It’s preposterous and flies in the face of history and common sense. 

    The sedes who use this argument would have ignorant people who have no clue about the doctrine of the heretical Pope losing office etc. following error and heresy on the principle that “you have to obey the Pope if you think he’s the Pope no matter what.”

    Offline Sneedevacantist

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    Re: Sean Johnson on LifeSite News - Is He a Sede Now ?
    « Reply #84 on: December 10, 2024, 08:25:18 PM »
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  • While I appreciate the generous, even noble, spirit of your view, I think fairness requires a look at the other side of the coin too. Those calling on Sean for an apology have had years of experience with him, years worth of, lets be honest, jackassery. It's easy to see and to say that others should just forgive, and, honestly, that is the right answer, but its not so easy when you're the one that has to do the forgiving. What I'm saying is to realize that many of the enmities found here aren't based on one-off events, but are cuмulative. It's the same thing with Lad, he's worked very hard at creating ill will towards himself for far longer than the recent political debates and that's not anyone else's fault but his own.
    As for Sean, I only had a handful of run ins with him for which, to his great credit and to my edification, he apologized. I commend him for his virtue and am glad to hear that he is still working out his salvation.
    I understand what you're saying, but I personally believe that no one on this forum (including Sean Johnson) should get upset and hold grudges from the theological warzones here. It takes, at the very minimum, two to argue. There's nothing forcing anyone here to get into arguments, and there's certainly nothing forcing said people to continue those arguments when they get nasty. It's just not worth it in most cases to get absorbed in online arguments, and it's never worth developing grudges over it. And that's what I'm really taking issue with here, the grudges! At best, the grudges are pointless, and at worst they are spiritually harmful!

    My interactions with Sean were limited, but I never had any arguments with him (at least that I can remember). Then again, I wasn't interested in arguing about sedevacantism with him. After all, there are plenty of other members here who can handle that :laugh1: