Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Disciplining wife  (Read 20274 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Änσnymσus

  • Guest
Re: Disciplining wife
« Reply #180 on: May 12, 2020, 10:18:43 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Here's the part right before her quote that she leaves out

    "For if to the Gentiles smiting us on the right, we must turn the other cheek; much more ought one to bear with harsh behavior in a husband. And I say not this for a wife to be beaten; far from it: for this is the extremest affront, not to her that is beaten, but to him who beats. But even if by some misfortune thou have such a yokefellow allotted you, take it not ill, O woman, considering the reward which is laid up for such things and their praise too in this present life. And to you husbands also this I say:..."

    St. John is talking about husbands who beat excessively. Not those who chastise justly.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #181 on: May 12, 2020, 10:23:05 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • St. Alphonsus leaves the door open for chastisement on any serious sin.

    If we take the quote give above it implies that St. Thomas says just adultery. However when you balance against the other quote it is not. But remember St. Thomas Aquinas fluctuates Immaculate conception, so it is not surprising if he seems contradictory here.

    Jayne, you are a woman and should not be talking about theology anyway. It is better if you leave this discussion to the men on the forum. Your mind is not able to process properly. I say so with kindness not bitterness or hatred towards the female sex.


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #182 on: May 12, 2020, 10:24:28 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Good post, Jaynek.  Even in this case, if a woman is not contrite or repentant about committing adultery, I question what good it would do. 
    You have a very low opinion of women then. While pretending that your opponents are the ones that disdain women.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #183 on: May 12, 2020, 01:37:49 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • What if your wife is a masochist and enjoys the disciplines?

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4160
    • Reputation: +2304/-1201
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #184 on: May 12, 2020, 02:04:53 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Jayne, you are a woman and should not be talking about theology anyway. It is better if you leave this discussion to the men on the forum. Your mind is not able to process properly. I say so with kindness not bitterness or hatred towards the female sex.
    Thank you for your advice.  I don't really have anything to add to what Mithrandylan said anyhow.


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #185 on: May 12, 2020, 02:39:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Finally, we're moving the discussion forward a bit here.
    First, can you provide the exact references please?
    I presume you took the time to read St. Alphonsus also.
    In any case, the moral theology books do not specify adultery. Any serious sin is necessary. Limiting it to adultery seems rather arbitrary. May women give grave scandal by persistently contradicting their husbands in front of the children and even in front of other families. Dominating the marriage (usurping his authority - a mortal sin) is a frequent one too.
    As traditional Catholic who need to be counter cultural, we need to push against this all the more. Husbands who want their families to be like this, have a right to mould them in this way.
    Yes. It’s the Moral Theology of St. Alphonsus( it’s in Latin so I’m not sure most of you will find it helpful)
    “De quarto praecepto,” dub. 5, nn. 351–356, available here on pp. 614–616: http://www.santalfonsoedintorni.it/Libri/Morale1/1Mor3-3-2.pdf
    “De matrimonio,” dub. 2, art. 3, n. 963, available here on pp. 142–143 (esp. p. 142):
     http://www.santalfonsoedintorni.it/Libri/Morale4/4Mor6-06-02c.pdf
    Those are from the 1905–1912 critical/scientific edition by Fr. Léonard Gaudé, C.Ss.R. under the reign of St. Pius X.

    Offline Banezian

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 477
    • Reputation: +166/-821
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #186 on: May 12, 2020, 02:41:00 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes. It’s the Moral Theology of St. Alphonsus( it’s in Latin so I’m not sure most of you will find it helpful)
    “De quarto praecepto,” dub. 5, nn. 351–356, available here on pp. 614–616: http://www.santalfonsoedintorni.it/Libri/Morale1/1Mor3-3-2.pdf
    “De matrimonio,” dub. 2, art. 3, n. 963, available here on pp. 142–143 (esp. p. 142):
     http://www.santalfonsoedintorni.it/Libri/Morale4/4Mor6-06-02c.pdf
    Those are from the 1905–1912 critical/scientific edition by Fr. Léonard Gaudé, C.Ss.R. under the reign of St. Pius X.
    That was me
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Banezian

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 477
    • Reputation: +166/-821
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #187 on: May 12, 2020, 03:00:18 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • St. Alphonsus leaves the door open for chastisement on any serious sin.

    If we take the quote give above it implies that St. Thomas says just adultery. However when you balance against the other quote it is not. But remember St. Thomas Aquinas fluctuates Immaculate conception, so it is not surprising if he seems contradictory here.

    Jayne, you are a woman and should not be talking about theology anyway. It is better if you leave this discussion to the men on the forum. Your mind is not able to process properly. I say so with kindness not bitterness or hatred towards the female sex.
    What I posted were points from St. Alphonsus
    Speaking that way to a woman is not in good taste. You insult an older woman on the forum while posting anonymously yourself. Shame, shame
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9


    Offline Banezian

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 477
    • Reputation: +166/-821
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #188 on: May 12, 2020, 03:03:10 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I’ve met Traditional Dominican nuns who are much, much smarter than most men on CI( and I say that as someone who’s fiercely anti-feminist)
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #189 on: May 12, 2020, 04:03:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • What if your wife is a masochist and enjoys the disciplines?
     put fishooks and razer blades in the discipline then.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #190 on: May 12, 2020, 04:08:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • What I posted were points from St. Alphonsus
    Speaking that way to a woman is not in good taste. You insult an older woman on the forum while posting anonymously yourself. Shame, shame
    No it is something I meant to say a lot earlier.
    Wives should not be allowed to chitter chatter on the internet. Especially not publicly. Perhaps on a private forum with other women, and with the surveillance of her husband. But then that begs the question of why her husband is allowing her unrestricted internet access.
    It's not to attack their intelligence, but rather their capacity to reflect in a dispassionate way. They are not men's equal, as St. Thomas points out.
    Do you have english translations for those St. Alphonsus books you linked to?
    I mean you hardly translated all that yourself did you?


    Offline Banezian

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 477
    • Reputation: +166/-821
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #191 on: May 12, 2020, 04:18:17 PM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
  • No it is something I meant to say a lot earlier.
    Wives should not be allowed to chitter chatter on the internet. Especially not publicly. Perhaps on a private forum with other women, and with the surveillance of her husband. But then that begs the question of why her husband is allowing her unrestricted internet access.
    It's not to attack their intelligence, but rather their capacity to reflect in a dispassionate way. They are not men's equal, as St. Thomas points out.
    Do you have english translations for those St. Alphonsus books you linked to?
    I mean you hardly translated all that yourself did you?
    Your views lack nuance. From Prummer’s Moral Theology
    "There are certain duties which are mutual and others which are peculiar to husband or wife.
    1. a) The following obligations are mutual : i) mutual love both affective and effective ; ii) the rendering of the marriage debt ; iii) life in common (mutual companionship).
    2. b) The husband is obliged i) as head of the family to guide his wife, children and servants ; ii) to provide for his wife and family sufficient food, clothing and maintenance ; iii) to administer family property wisely.
    3. c) The wife is obliged : 1) to show due obedience to her husband ; ii) to pay careful attention to the home and to the education of her children.
    4. Scholium. The emancipation of women. Although this question does not fall within the province of the virtue of piety, however since it affects relationships between husband and wife it may be useful to mention
    1 The Code of Canon law (c. 1113) has this to say on the question : “ Parents are bound by a most serious obligation to provide for the religious and moral as well as the physical and civil education of their children and to care for their temporal welfare.”

    a few points which moral theologians ought to keep in mind regarding this question which is agitating the minds of men and States to-day.

    1. So far as their souls, supernatural grace, and destiny are concerned, men and women are equal.
    2. Although in general woman is weaker than man in her physical and intellectual powers, nevertheless there are many women who can do exactly the same work as men. Therefore there is nothing in the work itself to prevent such works and duties being given to capable women, such as the office of doctor, teacher, etc.
    3. God created woman as man’s helper and formed her from Adam’s rib ; furthermore He has excluded her from the priesthood. All this would seem to indicate clearly that it was never God’s intention for complete equality to exist between man and woman. Therefore the radical emancipation of women and their complete equality with men seem to be alien to the Creator’s intention.
    4. A woman’s chief duty is care for the home and therefore any form of emancipation which disrupts family life must be rejected.
    5. So far as Catholicism is concerned, there is nothing to prevent (at least in itself) capable women from possessing the right to vote even in political matters. But it is an entirely different question whether any useful purpose is served either in respect of the State or Church by granting women the right to vote in any particular district"
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #192 on: May 12, 2020, 10:49:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Any Catholic guides, tips, advice on how a husband is to discipline his wife?
    Remove the beam from your eye before removing the splinter from hers.
    But also like...is disciplining really necessary? Isn't fraternal correction a thing still?
    Plus if you're such a bad communicator that you can't have a civil, logical, and respectful conversation to correct your wife and have to resort to physical violence, you probably shouldn't be married at all. And your wife should call the cops.
    Also PSA to any wives here who are being "punished" physically by your husbands: it is abuse, please call the police for your own safety and for the safety of any children you may have. Your husband does not have the right to beat you into submission, because it is his duty as a husband to protect you. And if he's beating you, he is certainly not protecting you.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #193 on: May 13, 2020, 04:56:09 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Your views lack nuance. From Prummer’s Moral Theology
    "There are certain duties which are mutual and others which are peculiar to husband or wife.
    1. a) The following obligations are mutual : i) mutual love both affective and effective ; ii) the rendering of the marriage debt ; iii) life in common (mutual companionship).
    2. b) The husband is obliged i) as head of the family to guide his wife, children and servants ; ii) to provide for his wife and family sufficient food, clothing and maintenance ; iii) to administer family property wisely.
    3. c) The wife is obliged : 1) to show due obedience to her husband ; ii) to pay careful attention to the home and to the education of her children.
    4. Scholium. The emancipation of women. Although this question does not fall within the province of the virtue of piety, however since it affects relationships between husband and wife it may be useful to mention
    1 The Code of Canon law (c. 1113) has this to say on the question : “ Parents are bound by a most serious obligation to provide for the religious and moral as well as the physical and civil education of their children and to care for their temporal welfare.”

    a few points which moral theologians ought to keep in mind regarding this question which is agitating the minds of men and States to-day.

    1. So far as their souls, supernatural grace, and destiny are concerned, men and women are equal.
    2. Although in general woman is weaker than man in her physical and intellectual powers, nevertheless there are many women who can do exactly the same work as men. Therefore there is nothing in the work itself to prevent such works and duties being given to capable women, such as the office of doctor, teacher, etc.
    3. God created woman as man’s helper and formed her from Adam’s rib ; furthermore He has excluded her from the priesthood. All this would seem to indicate clearly that it was never God’s intention for complete equality to exist between man and woman. Therefore the radical emancipation of women and their complete equality with men seem to be alien to the Creator’s intention.
    4. A woman’s chief duty is care for the home and therefore any form of emancipation which disrupts family life must be rejected.
    5. So far as Catholicism is concerned, there is nothing to prevent (at least in itself) capable women from possessing the right to vote even in political matters. But it is an entirely different question whether any useful purpose is served either in respect of the State or Church by granting women the right to vote in any particular district"
    I know all this. There only lack of nuance was on your part to presume I did not know that.
    Prummer is limited in this question anyway. Like many of the modern books, he omits the question of corporal discipline.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #194 on: May 13, 2020, 05:04:01 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The quote from Prummer is pretty weak.

    Equality is not a word that we really here before the French revolution.

    I would dare to say also that there is no way in which men an women are equal. Equality can only be limited to the possibility of saving one's soul. But in the supernatural order as well as the natural one, there is total inequality. So we shouldn't even use the word equality, but rather just say that every human being has the possibility of saving one's soul.

    Another thing that whiffs of a modern influence is his talking about voting. Catholics should not really be engaged in democratic politics. It is demonic. The only type of democracy that would be moderately acceptable would be one where only noble men can vote. Not other men, and certainly not women.

    We should take Prummer therefore with a pinch of salt. Pre revolutionary theologians are much more trustworthy.